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-   -   What's happening here??? (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=1011398)

HeavyAssault 03-05-2020 06:08 AM

What's happening here???
 
1 Attachment(s)
So I found this when I was checking the pistol for function with a loaded magazine.

Am I doing something wrong?? Should I load 1 round in the mag first, load the mag, cycle the slide, then drop the mag, load the mag, then load the pistol???

I'm not sure what's causing this to happen.

Maddog521 03-05-2020 06:57 AM

Bullet Setback
Do you load and unload often? That is usually when it occurs.

HeavyAssault 03-05-2020 07:09 AM

This was using factory ammo, as I don't reload. As a practice I generally do not load/reload the pistol when carrying to inside the house.

The picture was the first example, the second time I did it was with a new round. Seems as chambering the round with a full mag isn't helping. Seems as I need to load a mag with one round, release the slide, then drop mag, load mag, insert mag.

When releasing the slide I could feel a difference between the two ways: loading from a full count loaded mag, and loading from a single count loaded mag.

Not to mention I found a site that showed the difference in a 185gr round to 230gr bullet as it sits in the case.

I don't think I ever had this problem with my SA loading rounds from a full mag. I was using 230gn rounds for that pistol. When I get back home I'll be double checking this ammo in the SA.

NC2Red 03-05-2020 09:33 AM

Since I have reloaded .45 acp for years, it looks like the case still has a little flare to the case mouth. If this is a factory load then it appears to be a manufacturing error. I would contact the manufacturer and talk to them about it. Hope this helps.

HeavyAssault 03-05-2020 10:03 AM

It is factory ammo. What do you mean by case flare??

drail 03-05-2020 01:01 PM

Send that photo to whoever manufactured that round. That is a dangerously defective product. Was that round chambered more than ONE time or multiple times? If you are chambering rounds more than one time you must stop doing that with factory ammo. Factory ammo being sold today was NEVER intended to be chambered more than one time. Full mag/empty mag makes no difference here. The case has nowhere near enough tension to hold the bullet in placeas it is being chambered. This is a manufacturing defect.

HeavyAssault 03-05-2020 03:53 PM

When looking up bullet setback I'm sure it's the ammo, as well as other factors. That round pictured was only chambered once...not several times.

When I load the magazine (or other mags I have) with a single round, there's not an issue, or al least not without caliper measurements to confirm. With a fully loaded mag the issue will present with loading the single round one time. Add to that it seems as people say the lower 185gn HP bullets don't have the "nose ramp" that the 230gn rounds do for an "assist" with running into the chamber properly.

What doesn't make sense is if I never unloaded the pistol I would never have know of the issue. People were warning the case pressure created by this issue "could" be detrimental. So I could have racked off several mags not the wiser. Maybe there would have been a problem, maybe not.

Not to mention some people were saying to "sling shot" the slide versus using the slide release. As well people were saying the normal slide function when firing would not create an issue leading to bullet setback due to the kinetics of the action.

With all that I found after looking up this issue with 1911's I'm comfortable with knowing what this is and how this may be happening. So since I have a S&W PC revolver I'll use these specific rounds in that pistol. When I get back home I'll try loading a different round for use with the 1911, most likely a 230gn round.

Thanks to all that have replied. I appreciate the shared knowledge.

Mike_Fontenot 03-06-2020 10:57 AM

One more reason to prefer revolvers!!

HeavyAssault 03-07-2020 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_Fontenot (Post 13086536)
One more reason to prefer revolvers!!

I LOVE my S&W PC wheel gun!! Thing is huge and works awesome.

Got home and checked my ammo I have used in the other 1911.....YEA....the bullet shape is a HUGE difference. These rounds will go to the revo, and this S&W will get the other rounds.

Thanks again to all that replied. Seems as there are some rounds that are not a good choice for use in a 1911.

hudsonvalley 03-08-2020 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavyAssault (Post 13085492)
So I found this when I was checking the pistol for function with a loaded magazine.

Am I doing something wrong?? Should I load 1 round in the mag first, load the mag, cycle the slide, then drop the mag, load the mag, then load the pistol???

I'm not sure what's causing this to happen.

bad crimp in last stage

HeavyAssault 03-11-2020 03:44 PM

Sorry to break it you people but this was not 100% an ammo problem. When comparing the bullet shape to a 230gn HP round there's a significant difference. To the point when you study up about the aggressive feed ramp of the 1911 you can see how this happened.

Is it a single 1911 "fault"....no: Cause there is other ammo that feeds just fine.
Is it a single ammo "fault"..no: Cause the ammo will feed in other weapons that use 45ACP.

When you combine the two into one situation......the fault appears.
Just use ammo that has a larger cone/dome compared to what I used that has a bit more taper.

Mike_Fontenot 03-11-2020 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavyAssault (Post 13090470)
[...]
To the point when you study up about the aggressive feed ramp of the 1911 you can see how this happened.
[...]

Very interesting! I hadn't ever heard anyone talk about "the aggressive feed ramp of the 1911" before. Is it a steeper SLOPE than other semi-auto's? In particular, is that perhaps why Glocks seem to be more reliable than 1911's? Also, is the aggressive feed ramp of 1911's applicable to both barrel-mounted and frame-mounted feed ramps?

HeavyAssault 03-11-2020 06:43 PM

[QUOTE]Is it a steeper SLOPE than other semi-auto's? In particular, is that perhaps why Glocks seem to be more reliable than 1911's? Also, is the aggressive feed ramp of 1911's applicable to both barrel-mounted and frame-mounted feed ramps?/QUOTE]

The discussion I found wasn't that specific regarding barrel-mounted or frame-mounted. Nor was it so uber scientific to give very specific details compared to other pistol designs and manufacturing techniques.

Considering there are many ways to skin a cat it's going to take a spreadsheet to map it all out.

HeavyAssault 03-11-2020 06:49 PM

Compared to what was having "issues" and what works for me, you can see the differences in shape of the nose.

https://forums.1911forum.com/attachm...2&d=1583410005

https://www.campingworld.com/dw/imag...0%5C&sm%5C=fit

HeavyAssault 03-11-2020 06:58 PM

The taper on the nose of the Hornady round (first pictured) was being driven into the feed ramp and not able to ride along the feed ramp.

Whereas the second pictured round is able to ride along the ramp easier therefore not being forced into a "setback" situation.

That's how I understand it. Not to mention I wondered why I never had this "issue" before. When inspecting all my other 45ACP rounds they were shaped more like the second pictured round. Much more rounded nose.

Of course none of this matters with my S&W revo, so I just swapped the other ammo off the moon clips, and loaded up the Hornady on the moon clips. Finally done and happy to know more about my issue than a few days ago.

HeavyAssault 03-11-2020 07:02 PM

Here's what the ammo I bought looked like when not "set back".

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-xr3g...262267.jpg?c=2

therewolf 03-11-2020 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddog521 (Post 13085536)
Bullet Setback
Do you load and unload often? That is usually when it occurs.

Maddog meant "do you load and unload the gun often", not do you reload bullets often. Bullet setback is a common occurrence when you are constantly loading and unloading the same bullets in the same gun.

HeavyAssault 03-11-2020 07:17 PM

I addressed that already as I wanted people to know I do not hand load ammo.

It's crazy cause this never happens when I load/unload my S&W Wheel pistol....LOL

Have I seen it before?? Yes, I spent plenty time in the military with rifles. There were times when this happened. I never knew what it was called here in the community. I've never experienced it before in any my other auto pistols nor my other 1911.

Oldsalt65 03-21-2020 02:03 PM

That bullet setback was the result of defective ammunition.

Contact Hornady.

jjfitch 03-21-2020 02:41 PM

Have you tried pushing the bullet in by finger pressure against a solid object like a workbench?

It should be very difficult to impossible to push the bullet into the case. When talking to the manufacturer they likely will ask.

Do you have access to calipers to measure finished diameter at the case mouth?

Bullets don't really "slide" up the fed ramp it is more like a carom or bounce upward as the slide moves forward into battery.

Smiles,

Mike_Fontenot 03-21-2020 02:45 PM

In my opinion, bullets used in semi-autos should have a slightly smaller diameter at the point where it mates with the casing (because in semi-autos, the bullet gets slammed into the feed ramp, and the design shouldn't depend on a crimp to keep the bullet from sliding back into the casing). I suspect this problem occurs fairly often (but usually not as extreme as in this example).

HeavyAssault 03-21-2020 02:45 PM

It's not defective ammo.

M-Peltier 03-22-2020 09:04 AM

What Magazine were you using when that happened? Post a picture of the feedlips and follower from above. That is actually not uncommon with certain bullet ogives and feedlip styles when paired together.

HeavyAssault 03-22-2020 09:16 AM

I first noticed it when using the OE mags that came with the pistol. I then tried CMC Power Mags which still had the same result.
Now knowing the proper term "bullet ogive", that seems to be where my issue is based. Seeing the picture below my bullets had the far left, and the far right style by my eyes.

I'm not worried about it anymore to be honest. The 230gn is going to work just fine in the semi-auto, the 185gn will feed the revolver.

If I shop for something else to use in the semi I'll pay more attention to the ogive for the ammo selection.

http://mountainmolds.com/three_ogive.jpg

M-Peltier 03-23-2020 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavyAssault (Post 13100332)
I first noticed it when using the OE mags that came with the pistol. I then tried CMC Power Mags which still had the same result.
Now knowing the proper term "bullet ogive", that seems to be where my issue is based. Seeing the picture below my bullets had the far left, and the far right style by my eyes.

I'm not worried about it anymore to be honest. The 230gn is going to work just fine in the semi-auto, the 185gn will feed the revolver.

If I shop for something else to use in the semi I'll pay more attention to the ogive for the ammo selection.

http://mountainmolds.com/three_ogive.jpg

This is also a good read as to the different mag lip styles. The different magazine lips present the rounds to the feed ramp at differing angles and when combined with the ogive you selected drives the nose into the feed ramp with too little angle to safely deflect it into the chamber. Some ammo just stops the gun with a feed jam. Others like yours, result in a set back of the bullet into the case due to marginal crimp or neck tension of the case. Like a plane crash, its not usually just one thing gone wrong, but several. In your case its probably the bullet ogive coupled with poor crimp/neck tension for the mags your using and maybe the feed ramp is slightly steep.

https://rangehot.com/hybrid-vs-wadcutter-1911-magazine/


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