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ballman6711 12-01-2019 08:25 AM

Update on CCI primers
 
I finally got around to loading some 185's again with the CCI 300 lp primers, and went to the range yesterday. First a brief background.

For those that hadn't seen the previous thread, I had loaded some of these primers in 185gr XTP's laddered up to 5.5gr (which I now know is very light) at an oal of 1.245" and my 3" Ultra failed to cycle when they were shot. 50 rds and only one ejected.

Back to the update, I loaded these rounds again to the same specs (no ladder this time, just 5.5gr) as well as some with WLP's, ten rounds of each for a total of twenty rounds. Except for the primers, all rounds were loaded the same as previously per my notes.

The CCI primed rounds shot fine, were reasonably accurate at seven yards (a fist sized group after drinking a pot of coffee :eek:), and felt very light. The WLP primed rounds were just the same. All twenty rounds fed and cycled the pistol without a problem. I shot five of each, then watched my gf shoot five of each to observe the ejection pattern. All were consistent in ejecting and had we not been at an indoor range I would think they would have landed about 3-5 feet away somewhere between 3 and 4 o'clock.

So why did they turn my gun into a single shot the first time? Well, it obviously wasn't a primer issue.

My thoughts are that the first time I tried these loads my gun failed to cycle due to being dirty and dry, as in somewhere around 600 rounds without cleaning and only a drop or two of oil on the slide. I was testing at the time to see how many rounds I could shoot before the gun failed to function. This time around the gun only had about 50 rds through it and was oiled properly. Also of note, the springs are the factory rate of 18lbs recoil and 23lbs main spring.

Or it could have been something with the reloads themselves, although I don't think so. According to my notes, the rounds shot this time felt the same as previously, and were similar in accuracy.

I also want to say that not one of the 60 CCI primed rounds failed to fire, and there were no light strikes. Every round went bang on the first trigger pull.

Any thoughts or comments are welcome as always. And remember to keep your gun clean!

chris

RetiredRod 12-01-2019 09:35 AM

Chris, thanks for posting this. Field results are always informative and helpful. Especially when it's a follow-up to a previous possible problem.

ballman6711 12-01-2019 09:48 AM

Thanks RR, I still don't know why my reloads turned my gun into a single shot 45acp, but can only guess that it was due to my "torture testing".

I will say that all my reloads have fired on the first pull of the trigger, but I'm still new at this and only have about 1600 or so documented rounds. And I have kept records of every round since I started, so I can go back and see what I've done and what worked and what didn't.

chris

Grandpas50AE 12-01-2019 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballman6711 (Post 12999768)
Thanks RR, I still don't know why my reloads turned my gun into a single shot 45acp, but can only guess that it was due to my "torture testing".

I will say that all my reloads have fired on the first pull of the trigger, but I'm still new at this and only have about 1600 or so documented rounds. And I have kept records of every round since I started, so I can go back and see what I've done and what worked and what didn't.

chris

A wise strategy and process, especially when starting out, but with time it becomes apparent that it is also a wise strategy for experienced reloaders as well - you never know when a particular component or change in process will start to induce problems. I have notes for each specific load cataloged back to the mid 70's, and a separate book for my favorite "established" loads that are the ones that have given me the best performance for the task required: target, hunting, etc. This "established" load notebook has entries for each caliber/cartridge I have ever loaded for, both rifle and handgun. I still refer to it fairly often.

Nitro.45 12-01-2019 09:57 AM

Now that the “dirty, dry gun” skeleton is out of the closet, it makes absolute sense. I get the test to see how long it would fire well until it needed to be cleaned, but that was the answer the entire time. Even with a magnum vs standard primer test, I doubt that you could create a cycle/non cycle scenario with any reliability. Thanks for clearing up the faulty CCI primer thing. Far too many of us have never had a failure with them. :)

ballman6711 12-01-2019 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE (Post 12999770)
A wise strategy and process, especially when starting out, but with time it becomes apparent that it is also a wise strategy for experienced reloaders as well - you never know when a particular component or change in process will start to induce problems. I have notes for each specific load cataloged back to the mid 70's, and a separate book for my favorite "established" loads that are the ones that have given me the best performance for the task required: target, hunting, etc. This "established" load notebook has entries for each caliber/cartridge I have ever loaded for, both rifle and handgun. I still refer to it fairly often.

I also have a few "established" loads written down and easily accessed, along with notes on feel, performance, etc....

And Nitro, I thought I had mentioned in the original thread about the gun being dirty, although I may not have been clear.

Off topic: This has been a great place for learning and gathering information, not just about reloading. Thanks to everyone here for a great site!

chris

TRSOtto 12-01-2019 11:39 AM

After 40+ yrs of reloading, I'm of the opinion that primers are primers are primers and there ain't squats worth of difference between them. When someone posts that xxx brand of primers are causing a problem, there's always something else in play that they've not yet figured out. The only guys who seemingly get into trouble are revolver guys who play with hammer springs.

Glad you got things figured out.

RetiredRod 12-01-2019 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRSOtto (Post 12999858)
After 40+ yrs of reloading, I'm of the opinion that primers are primers are primers and there ain't squats worth of difference between them. When someone posts that xxx brand of primers are causing a problem, there's always something else in play that they've not yet figured out. The only guys who seemingly get into trouble are revolver guys who play with hammer springs.

Glad you got things figured out.

I think TRSO is dead on target. My experience has been the same as his regarding primers. And, yes, I've gotten into primer trouble when "adjusting" my revolver springs.

I'm starting to think some of us reloaders are a little compulsive about record keeping. I've got load records going back to the 80's along with test targets. Used to refer to them quite a bit, but not so much in recent years as I've settled into my "favorite" loads.

Snapdragon 12-01-2019 02:55 PM

Have you tried the CCI loads again with a clean pistol? Unless I missed something, you changed two variables between tests and can not say for sure what the cause of the failures was.

Grandpas50AE 12-01-2019 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapdragon (Post 13000046)
Have you tried the CCI loads again with a clean pistol? Unless I missed something, you changed two variables between tests and can not say for sure what the cause of the failures was.

I think the third paragraph of post #1 states two identical loads with just the two primer makes being different (10 rounds of each primer make) and all shot fine - eliminates primer as the cause of his initial problem.

ballman6711 12-01-2019 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE (Post 13000066)
I think the third paragraph of post #1 states two identical loads with just the two primer makes being different (10 rounds of each primer make) and all shot fine - eliminates primer as the cause of his initial problem.

This would be correct. The pistol was cleaned and oiled properly this time, with about 50 rounds fired before testing the primers.

I made ten rounds identical to the "problem" rounds and ten identical except for the Winchester primers.

chris

Snapdragon 12-01-2019 10:05 PM

Thanks. I misread that part.

johnnyreloader 12-10-2019 06:43 AM

I've had same issue with a dirty 1911. Rounds fired fine in Glock 21 and EAA Compact, but failures to feed, chamber in 1911 that was way too dirty.
Someone said primers are pretty much the same, have to disagree with that. One 45ACP/230 LRN load I like got 50fps more with CCI 550 SPM than with CCI 300 LP. But that was one particular bullet/powder/pistol combination. As we all know, what's good in one pistol can be horrible in another.

Rwehavinfunyet 12-10-2019 07:03 AM

Primers.....
 
Quote:

After 40+ yrs of reloading, I'm of the opinion that primers are primers are primers and there ain't squats worth of difference between them.
I don't find that to be true..... and I have been reloading over 40 years also! Quite a few years ago, there was a primer shortage…..I could not find CCI, Winchester, or Remington small pistol primers. I ordered about 3K TULA primers through Powder Valley to get me through until I could get CCI primers.

I had numerous misfires using Tula primers, even though the firing pin hit was well centered and a good hit.....and no, I did not have a high primer issue. After about 3 separate misfires, I saved the inert round, pulled the bullet, decapped the brass, and inspected the primer......there was no anvil!!!!!

Out of 3K Tula primers, I had about ten misfires......I ended up using them strictly for practice and have never purchased Tula primers since.....IMHO, primers made in Russia can stay in Russia.....:biglaugh:

Also, the cup of the primer may be softer with some brands....like Federal ammo. The metal hardness of the primer cup, and the brisance of the primer flash make a difference for handguns with a soft hammer strike.....whether it is a striker fired or external hammer....

Here is a link to see a reference for various types of primer used for pistols and rifles and there ranking for sensitivity and hardness.....

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/1...ivity-ranking/

In the above posts in the brain enos forum, the second post from Youngeyes is quite informative.....and this data shows that not all primers are alike.....

Nitro.45 12-10-2019 07:20 AM

I completely agree with the Tula comparison. That’s like apples and lemons. Too many people have complained about them in the past. They are not made to the standard as the US brands.
Another unfair comparison is that of a magnum and standard primer. It is 100% true that they are made to burn longer/hotter specifically for the application of slower burning, larger volume loads. Of course there will be a difference.
As far as comparing a bunch of decent quality standard primers (including the S&B), I doubt that anyone here without extensive controlled testing could come up with a conclusion either way about performance. No, this does not include a test to see which ones fire in a tuned wheeler, we know about sensitivity.

DWARREN123 12-10-2019 12:47 PM

In the last few years the only primer I have had trouble with is Winchester small pistol primers.
Had 8 out of a 1,000 primer pack not fire. Tried multiple times in 3 different pistols but no go.
I usually use CCI #500 and have tried the Winchester and Fiocchi but only had problems with Winchester brand.

Nitro.45 12-11-2019 07:44 AM

That is not a good sign! That is a very high failure rate. Do everyone a favor and reach out to them. They may want to know if they had a bad lot get through. I’m sure folks on this forum would like to know if there was a recall as well!

DubfromGa 12-11-2019 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballman6711 (Post 12999710)
I finally got around to loading some 185's again with the CCI 300 lp primers, and went to the range yesterday. First a brief background.

For those that hadn't seen the previous thread, I had loaded some of these primers in 185gr XTP's laddered up to 5.5gr (which I now know is very light) at an oal of 1.245" and my 3" Ultra failed to cycle when they were shot. 50 rds and only one ejected.

Back to the update, I loaded these rounds again to the same specs (no ladder this time, just 5.5gr) as well as some with WLP's, ten rounds of each for a total of twenty rounds. Except for the primers, all rounds were loaded the same as previously per my notes.

The CCI primed rounds shot fine, were reasonably accurate at seven yards (a fist sized group after drinking a pot of coffee :eek:), and felt very light. The WLP primed rounds were just the same. All twenty rounds fed and cycled the pistol without a problem. I shot five of each, then watched my gf shoot five of each to observe the ejection pattern. All were consistent in ejecting and had we not been at an indoor range I would think they would have landed about 3-5 feet away somewhere between 3 and 4 o'clock.

So why did they turn my gun into a single shot the first time? Well, it obviously wasn't a primer issue.

My thoughts are that the first time I tried these loads my gun failed to cycle due to being dirty and dry, as in somewhere around 600 rounds without cleaning and only a drop or two of oil on the slide. I was testing at the time to see how many rounds I could shoot before the gun failed to function. This time around the gun only had about 50 rds through it and was oiled properly. Also of note, the springs are the factory rate of 18lbs recoil and 23lbs main spring.

Or it could have been something with the reloads themselves, although I don't think so. According to my notes, the rounds shot this time felt the same as previously, and were similar in accuracy.

I also want to say that not one of the 60 CCI primed rounds failed to fire, and there were no light strikes. Every round went bang on the first trigger pull.

Any thoughts or comments are welcome as always. And remember to keep your gun clean!

chris


That's cool that you ruled things out.

My father has a 3" Kimber that I've shot before and was very, very impressed with how well it ran for me. Gun handled great and accuracy was much to my liking. I'm a fan of .45 1911 in all sizes and didn't find it to be overly snappy. Hoping to shoot it again during some range sessions with him later this month.




I've had some dirty guns create some issues.



I remember when I was breaking in this gun in accordance with the instructions that LB said to follow.



http://i.imgur.com/93n0Un7.png?1




Even with frequent wipe downs and reapplying the recommended CLP it was filled with crud once I finally field stripped it.


Ran much smoother after that, too.

Clean & well-lubed gun is a happy gun, right ? :rock:






I'm gonna go back and read through your initial thread. I know that I'm going to run into all sorts of problems once I get my gear up and running.....good to see the advice given on some of these threads.

This is a great place to learn. Very grateful for the membership here.

Nitro.45 12-12-2019 08:15 AM

Speaking of crud, it never ceases to amaze me when folks bring a brand new gun to the range, complete with all the factory grease intact. They load it up and the failures begin. I always have my cleaning gear with me and occasionally I’ll help them out if they are receptive. It’s nice to get a “Gee, thanks mister” every now and then. What’s not nice is the caked on crud that has to be removed, especially if they are using really dirty ammo. The byproduct is that I get to teach them the correct way to clean and care for their weapon. Clearly, their dad didn’t take the time. Some have no idea and don’t even own a cleaning kit!

johnnyreloader 12-13-2019 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitro.45 (Post 13008580)
Speaking of crud, it never ceases to amaze me when folks bring a brand new gun to the range, complete with all the factory grease intact. They load it up and the failures begin. I always have my cleaning gear with me and occasionally I’ll help them out if they are receptive. It’s nice to get a “Gee, thanks mister” every now and then. What’s not nice is the caked on crud that has to be removed, especially if they are using really dirty ammo. The byproduct is that I get to teach them the correct way to clean and care for their weapon. Clearly, their dad didn’t take the time. Some have no idea and don’t even own a cleaning kit!

At range this summer, dude took table next to mine and pulled new AR-15 out of the box and proceeded to load magazines.

I asked him if it was a new rifle, he said Yep, just left the gun store.
Then I asked him if he cleaned it yet.
He said no. I asked him to move a few tables away from me.

He got puzzled, almost insulted look on his face and asked why.
Told him if there's any factory dirt/grease/metal particles in that barrel,
it's going to blow up on first shot.
Didn't believe me that a new gun could be dirty, so I ran a freshly cleaned bore snake through his rifle and he couldn't believe how much gunk stuck to it.

He went home and cleaned the rifle, came back next day.

ballman6711 12-13-2019 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyreloader (Post 13009616)
At range this summer, dude took table next to mine and pulled new AR-15 out of the box and proceeded to load magazines.

I asked him if it was a new rifle, he said Yep, just left the gun store.
Then I asked him if he cleaned it yet.
He said no. I asked him to move a few tables away from me.

He got puzzled, almost insulted look on his face and asked why.
Told him if there's any factory dirt/grease/metal particles in that barrel,
it's going to blow up on first shot.
Didn't believe me that a new gun could be dirty, so I ran a freshly cleaned bore snake through his rifle and he couldn't believe how much gunk stuck to it.

He went home and cleaned the rifle, came back next day.

I too generally clean a new to me gun before shooting it for the first time.

I say generally, because I always carefully inspect a new to me gun before taking it to the range. Sometimes they are pretty clean and just get a quick run of oil on a rag through the barrel.

But I have bought "new, unissued" antique military rifles that had so much cosmoline in the barrel and elsewhere that they took hours to clean.

Always check a new to you gun for cleanliness, and especially barrel obstructions. May save your life. Many shooters don't seem to know that.

chris

ballman6711 12-13-2019 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubfromGa (Post 13007800)
That's cool that you ruled things out.

My father has a 3" Kimber that I've shot before and was very, very impressed with how well it ran for me. Gun handled great and accuracy was much to my liking. I'm a fan of .45 1911 in all sizes and didn't find it to be overly snappy. Hoping to shoot it again during some range sessions with him later this month.




I've had some dirty guns create some issues.



I remember when I was breaking in this gun in accordance with the instructions that LB said to follow.



http://i.imgur.com/93n0Un7.png?1




Even with frequent wipe downs and reapplying the recommended CLP it was filled with crud once I finally field stripped it.


Ran much smoother after that, too.

Clean & well-lubed gun is a happy gun, right ? :rock:






I'm gonna go back and read through your initial thread. I know that I'm going to run into all sorts of problems once I get my gear up and running.....good to see the advice given on some of these threads.

This is a great place to learn. Very grateful for the membership here.

I too love 1911's in all sizes. And this Ultra had some teething problems, but it's all sorted now and is a real pleasure to shoot.

And reloading for it allows me to tailor loads to my liking, and my gf's.

chris

TRSOtto 12-13-2019 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitro.45 (Post 13008580)
Speaking of crud, it never ceases to amaze me when folks bring a brand new gun to the range, complete with all the factory grease intact. They load it up and the failures begin. I always have my cleaning gear with me and occasionally I’ll help them out if they are receptive. It’s nice to get a “Gee, thanks mister” every now and then. What’s not nice is the caked on crud that has to be removed, especially if they are using really dirty ammo. The byproduct is that I get to teach them the correct way to clean and care for their weapon. Clearly, their dad didn’t take the time. Some have no idea and don’t even own a cleaning kit!

Caked on crud??? On a new gun??? I call BS......unless it's some POS Eastern Bloc war relic.

I unpack more new guns in a week than most folks will ever see in a lifetime. Been doing so for the last 5 years. In those 5 years, I have never....not once.....have I seen a gun packed in grease. It simply doesn't happen. It may have in the distant past.....but it doesn't happen today. 100% of every new gun I've unpacked....and it's literally thousands of every brand imaginable....is coated with a light oil.

Nitro.45 12-14-2019 10:21 AM

No one said “packed in grease”.
The factory lube that weapons are shipped with is not the optimal lubricant to have in the crevices of a new weapon when firing. Metal particles, polishing rouge and the like are all over the place. Since you unpack that many weapons, you probably have tunnel vision. I doubt that you do anything more than rack the slide and check the barrrel for obstructions. In almost every case of a new weapon that I have taken possession of, the internals are filthy, and yes, they have a heavier weight of lube than standard gun oil.
There is a reason that the manuals shipped with the weapon caution you to clean the gun thoroughly before firing. “Caked” may have been a bad word to use in my earlier statement, but crud, glop and crap are accurate. Those descriptors are not present after the weapon has been properly cleaned. Aside from cheap ammo, not cleaning a new weapon is the number one reason I have seen for failures. Usually screwing up slide function.

TRSOtto 12-14-2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitro.45 (Post 13010168)
No one said “packed in grease”.
The factory lube that weapons are shipped with is not the optimal lubricant to have in the crevices of a new weapon when firing. Metal particles, polishing rouge and the like are all over the place. Since you unpack that many weapons, you probably have tunnel vision. I doubt that you do anything more than rack the slide and check the barrrel for obstructions. In almost every case of a new weapon that I have taken possession of, the internals are filthy, and yes, they have a heavier weight of lube than standard gun oil.
There is a reason that the manuals shipped with the weapon caution you to clean the gun thoroughly before firing. “Caked” may have been a bad word to use in my earlier statement, but crud, glop and crap are accurate. Those descriptors are not present after the weapon has been properly cleaned. Aside from cheap ammo, not cleaning a new weapon is the number one reason I have seen for failures. Usually screwing up slide function.

You used the words "factory grease", ergo the implication "packed in grease".

No one uses grease any more. No one. "Crud, Glop, crap"?......Never seen it.....not in unboxing and inspecting literally thousands of guns.

OTOH.....you may be right as we don't carry HiPoint, Taurus or any other bargain basement POS guns.


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