How do LEO feel about concealed carry laws?

[jra]

I am by no means a law enforcement officer but the job I do have does require me to go into some "bad" neighborhoods quite frequently. I live in OH and there is no chance that I would be allowed, by current laws, to carry concealed. I respect the law, so therefore I do not carry a defensive weapon illegally. Gun advocate groups around here are pushing for concealed carry laws and I totally support their points of view. Something I notice that keeps coming up with the gun control crowd is that the police officers are totally against the concealed carry idea for legal citizens. I do understand that police do not want to have to worry if every Tom, Dick and Harry has a gun, but the way I figure, the people that will shoot at police officers could care less what the law says. I would like some honest feedback from law officers about citizens being able to carry that isn't screwed around by statistics.

[Powderman]

And, who told you this one?

I am 150% in favor of concealed carry by good, honest citizens. I have never had any problems with regular citizens carrying weapons. It's the bad guys I worry about.

The vast majority of street cops I know have no problem with concealed carry. As it has been said, an armed society is a polite society.

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"Be not afraid of any man, no matter what his size;

When trouble rises, call on me and I will equalize."

[NAA]

Originally posted by Powderman:
As it has been said, an armed society is a polite society.

Amen, Powderman! As a LEO, north of the border (Canada) where any kind of handgun 'carry' is virtually prohibited, (Our federal firearms law has provisions to allow handgun carry but it is virtually never allowed), I am often asked by gun owners, as a LEO, what I think of the concealed carry laws, south of the border (USA). I often start my reply with your quote, as above. (I had always thought that it was a "Cooperism" having first read it in Jeff Cooper's column in Guns & Ammo, but was previously corrected by a fellow poster on 1911.com).

Anyway, there is plenty of documented evidence to support that where handgun carry is allowed that the incident of violent crime (and crime in general) decreases. And the opposite is true where handguns are 'prohibited'. Just look what is happening in the UK since handguns were banned!

People who apply for concealed handgun carry do so for the most honorable intentions - to protect and defend themselves and others in times of crisis. The crooks, on the other hand, do not apply for such permits, and carry with ulterior motives. So, as a LEO, I say 'amen' to concealed carry! Best, NAA.



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Colt 1911: Best damn "Government" in the World!

[Mikey]

I think the majority of Officers have no problem with CCW. It's most often the Chiefs and Commissioners that would rather it go away. But they have a tendency to want to control everything anyway.

Mikey

[Double Naught Spy]

According to Texas Department of Public safety and the few officers I know, generally speaking concealed carry is highly thought of here in Texas. We have some strict background checks and if granted a license, that pretty much means you have a really clean legal bill of health. That means that you don't have unpaid hot checks, no DWIs, no domestic violence claims against you, or any sort of felony ranging from and including juvenile records to present. If stopped by an officer in an official capacity (such as for speeding), we are required to tell the officer that we are carrying (if we are) and to present ID and CHL (if carrying) when ID is requested.

As an officer in Texas, you know they stop a lot of people who have guns who don't tell them. If the gun is discovered, it is a nasty surprise for the officer and officers don't like nasty surprises. With CHL holders, the officer is informed, he sees the CHL that indicates the person has a very clean legal record (one of the good guys), and he can work the situation appropriately.

Here in Texas, CHL holders are less likely to commit a crime compared to the general population and they are less likely to use a gun in a crime (even though they have a license and may be carrying). There are no absolutes, but in Texas, CHL holders are typically some of the better people froma legal standpoint, regardless of social or economic status. If you have to stop someone for speeding, as a law officer, these are probably the best people to have to deal with.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I am a retired Texas police officer after serving 25 continuous years. CHL came into being here in Texas before I retired and I was an instructor while still an officer.

At first, some of the officers were skeptical of CHL, but when they actually became familar with the law and its requirements, the vast majority not only supported it, but had members of immediate family take the course and get their license.

Contrary to what the media portrays about LEOs being fearful of CHL, I truly believe that the average working street officer supports it.

Best.

[JimH]

Originally posted by jra:
<snip> I would like some honest feedback from law officers about citizens being able to carry that isn't screwed around by statistics.

Perhaps I am atypical but I helped write (only a small part), promote, and pass Ky.'s CCDW law in 1996. Our FOP lodge endorsed it.

I ran into only a couple of officers who opposed it, other than some noted police chiefs (who shouldn't count!)... personally I think that is rather selfish of them and not very bright to boot (someday they may not be cops but a lot of folks will still be mad at them).

Armed men are citizens, disarmed men are subjets.

Jim Higginbotham

[EOS1D]

I agree with all of the above. Last night I just had this same conversation with another officer. He was against it. He also never carries a gun off-duty. I gave him all my points including that a legally carried gun does not put him in any more danger than what he faces now.
I fullly support CCW. I also think that the police are not the only one's that want the ability to protect one's family.
How important is concealed carry for me. When I retire in a few short years, it won't be in the State of New Jersey!! (Police did get the ability recently to get retired officer carry permits, but it's unbelieveable that it is illegal to carry anything but ball ammo .
I will move south because I can't live in such an anti-gun state!!! The weather helps also

[Patrickl]

Well, although by in large the majority of individual officers support CCW, the collective unions do not. Since wages are tied to a stong union officers by default end up supporting the unions point of view.
With rare exception, most unions and police organizations have opposed CCW laws in most states.

It's going to take some real courage on the part of individual officers to breakaway from their unions and support CCW laws.

It all boils down to this. You either want equal rights for all people or you want a raise.

[Lee114]

Not only am I a Texas Peace Officer but I am a CHL holder as is my wife and my Chief of Police. I have a CHL because I like to travel and Texas has a reciprocity agreement with several other states, one being Arizona, where my Dad lives. Another reason I decided personally to get a CHL was the fact it was extremely frustrating when buying a firearm to see people with CHLs not have to go through the NICS check and I as a full time Cop did! And it only costs $25.00 bucks for Peace Officers to get their CHL while the mainstream public pays $140.00. I am wholly in favor of concealed carry and often advise people who ask to apply for a license. However, now that Texas has this provision, I have no sympathy for those who violate the law and carry without a license. Nor do I have any sympathy for anyone violating the CHL laws...but as someone previously said, the people who have CHLs are not the people I worry about having guns. Just my two cents.

[Witherspoon]

Originally posted by EOS1D:
I agree with all of the above.
How important is concealed carry for me. When I retire in a few short years, it won't be in the State of New Jersey!! (Police did get the ability recently to get retired officer carry permits, but it's unbelieveable that it is illegal to carry anything but ball ammo .
I will move south because I can't live in such an anti-gun state!!! The weather helps also

Virginia is a "shall issue" state. Come on down!

As for what I think of the permits? My wife has one and I encourage all of my friends to do likewise.

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"Sic Semper Tyrannus"

[BrianMajors]

North Carolina's a shall issue state as well. We've got plenty of room and 100 counties to choose from. Plus, every officer I've ever asked has been for the concealed carry.

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"Double-action in an auto pistol seems to me an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem." -Jeff Cooper G&A mag Oct. 1973

[shane45]

Stuck here in N.J. and always preaching about right to carry, here are my common reactions from LEO.

LEO that I shoot with or are known shooters:
Generally have no problem with right to carry.

LEO that are not shooters:
NO WAY. Carrying is for cops only. Why you are just a citizen and couldnt possibly carry a firearm. You would make my job so dangerous that society would crumble with all the shootings that would occur.

These statements are made from my own experiences heard and conversed with my own ears and mouth. No second hand stories. The sadest part is that my own uncle is in group 2



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George Orwell: "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

[Sistema1927]

I have spoken with 10 to 12 LEOs lately about this issue. I have yet to find one that wasn't pro-CCW.

[Electric_Armadillo]

JRA,

Even though Ohio does not have a concealed handgun permitting system, it does have a "Prudent man going in armed" clause in its state constitution. This clause is written in a way that allows concealed carry for anyone.

The drawback is that if you are caught with a firearm, you are guilty until proven innocent in a court of law. The outcome of this is privy to political climate, FOP stance, and the phase of the moon. It flip flopped around in a few cases in Cincinatti fairly recently. I'm not sure what end of the court the ball ended up in.

Another thing to consider is that you can go to PA and sign up for a CCW permit. They may issue to non-residents, and the fee is only about $20. This could hold some clout if you are ever tried in Ohio for carrying concealed.

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-Electric Armadillo-
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." - Yasir Arrafat (On going to war over religion)

[ehenz]

I'm in Ohio!

It is not Leos in general. The bill is being held up because our Gov. Taft wants the endorsement of the Police Cheifs Assoc.

This is what some "Ohioains for Concealed Carry" pitchman was telling me at a recent gun show.

[ehenz]

Originally posted by ehenz:
I'm in Ohio!

"Gun advocate groups around here are pushing for concealed carry laws and I totally support their points of view. Something I notice that keeps coming up with the gun control crowd is that the police officers are totally against the concealed carry idea for legal citizens".

It is not Leos in general. The bill is being held up because our Gov. Taft wants the endorsement of the Police Cheifs Assoc.

This is what some "Ohioains for Concealed Carry" pitchman was telling me at a recent gun show.

[7th Fleet]

As a Police Chief, I am very much in favor of all of the decent people in this country carrying concealed weapons if they want to. In fact I have trained hundreds of them in my city to do so, with my PD's gun safety and self defense seminars.

7th

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Support Your Local Police

[JAFO216]

I am an 11 year Veteran in So. Central Mo. . We had Prob B fail a year or so back . All my dept. 45 Sworn Deputies were for it But two pencil necked wormy types were going around saying they were scared . Well it was passing in Mo. until K.C. and St. Lois came in where it failed . Also you folks should know that the Fraternal order of Police a few years back supported the Assault weapons bill . But they did not poll the Chapters the National President just Voted for it on his own . Thats why I quit the F.O.P. because of crap like that going on. Whatever happened to Democracy . I fully support the right to carry with good background checks and a licensing procedure .

[Roadhog]

jra,

I'm a State Trooper in Ohio. Electric_Armadillo is correct to a point, in reference to the "prudent man going armed" clause. The excuse of "I'm scared" will not justify concealed carry. If you carried a large sum of money all the time or you had on your possession something very valuable then concealed carry "can" be justified. It will depend solely on the amount of common sense of the individual LEO who comes in contact with you. "Common sense" is used loosely;')

Quote from Ohio Revised Code 2923.12:

"(1) The weapon was carried or kept ready at hand by the actor for defensive purposes, while he was engaged in or was going to or from his lawful business or occupation, which business or occupation was of such character or was necessarily carried on in such manner or at such a time or place as to render the actor particularly susceptible to criminal attack, such as would justify a prudent man in going armed."

Link to the same:
http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/revisedcode/

In your vehicle, you can have your 1911, lying in the passenger seat or in plain view, empty with the slide locked back and a full magazine lying directly beside it and you are 100% legal. This comes directly from the Ohio Attorney Generals Office. This is what I tell groups that I speak to also. Any questions feel free to e-mail me...Bob

[7th Fleet]

I too quit the FOP and will never belong to that organization ever again. I fell out with them back in 1986 when they came out against the Firearms Owners Protection Act and were knocking the NRA.

7th

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Support Your Local Police

[This message has been edited by 7th Fleet (edited 11-10-2001).]

[BERGER]

I'm a 12 year patrol Sergeant in Okla. Forget anything you hear about LEO's opposing CCW permits, this is just propaganda fabricated by the left-wing-liberal-socialist-democrats to give an air of legitimacy to their phobic attempts to impose their will upon the rest of us. I would be surprised if you see any LEO's in this forum replying that they oppose law abiding citizens carrying. And by the way, CCW's or not, WE DO have to worry about every Tom, Dick, or Harry having a gun, and must always treat every situation as if this is a distinct possibility. Maggots are not of the mindset to go through channels and file paperwork to do anything, and besides,their records would preclude them. Its the criminals who don't care about the law that I concern myself with, not CCW permit holders.

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[DBR]

From an LEO perspective, I'd rather investigate a shooting than be in one. Concealed carry licenses allow the citizen to deal with their own problems and for the LEO to sort it out.

[Electric_Armadillo]

Originally posted by jra:
I would like some honest feedback from law officers about citizens being able to carry that isn't screwed around by statistics.

I would like to note that by asking on this forum, you are already getting numbers screwed up by statistics. There are cops who are love to shoot, and there are cops who will shoot 100 shots a year for thier qual. The LEO's that post here will, by the nature of this forum, be shooters and perhaps even NRA or GOA members. If you are looking for real numbers, you are going to have to either ask a lot of cops, or post in an impartial forum. Also be aware that an opinion that is given privately may be denied publicly. Thier is no gold medal handed out for stating an unpopular opinion.

My thanks to Roadhog for that car-carry method. I had previously thought that ammo had to be separate and locked.

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-Electric Armadillo-
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." - Yasir Arrafat (On going to war over religion)

[The Quiet Man]

Great Topic. I'm another Jersey Guy and while its true retired leos can carry, we can only carry Ball ammo.(one reason I bought my 45). The Kimber wasn't digesting HPs anyway. I have to say and agree with those that said it already. On this forum we all probably agree with citizen carry. But those that only use the gun as a necessary tool don't want any one else armed. Personally,I would feel much safer if we in this state had a concealed carry law. Then I could go out sometimes and just leave it at home. Now I feel when I go out that I have to carry 'cause if something happens no one else will be armed. It's almost like I never retired I'm just off duty. I think I'll send a donation to the GOA.....STAY SAFE