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  #1  
Old 12-17-2003, 05:34 PM
Nalapombu Nalapombu is offline
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Will the Hi Power Handle +P or +P+ ???




Hey,

Just finished reading the article by Ayoob in the new Guns magazine about the Hi Power. It was stated in the article that as few as 2 magazines full of +P or +P+ can damage the Hi Power. The 9mm has a thin slide and the recoil spring is not stout enough to handle the increased loads. It was also said that the Hi Power would not hold up very well afters years of shooting. Ayoob refrenced seeing many bins full of Hi Powers with broken slides and frames where they came from use in the military where they fell apart digesting GI hardball ammo.
The solution he has, via Cylinder and Slide, is to get the 40 cal Hi Power and have it converted to 9mm. That way you have the best of both worlds and you can shoot all the +P ammo you want.
The +P ammo argument doesn;t affect me much, I have never shot it. I am, however, concerned about how he implies that the 9mm Hi Power is not a good weapon for years of regular shooting.
What do you think of the above statements or the article? Do you agree that the Hi Power is a relatively fragile handgun that is not suited for a LOT of shooting?
As for the 40 cal Hi Power conversion to 9mm, that must cost a ton of money. Wouth it even be worth doing? What do you think?

Nala

P.S. He also had a few good things to say about the Hi Power too.
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  #2  
Old 12-17-2003, 05:59 PM
Stephen A. Camp Stephen A. Camp is offline
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Here are some articles that might be of interest:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/H...coilSpring.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Buffer.htm

This is from the FAQ section at www.fnhipower.com:

" What about +P and +P+??

This discussion comes up frequently in the Forum, and as such makes an appropriate topic here. +P and +P+ ammunition, though not recommended for use in Hi Power by Browning, has been used in small quantities without adverse affect, and in larger quantities to properly prepped guns without issue. The following article comes from the November 1989, issue of the American Rifleman magazine, starting on page 36. The American Rifleman is published monthly by the National Rifle Association of America, 1600 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20036. Telephone: (202) 828-6000. Note that the tests it refers to took place prior to 1989. This should make the post-94 Hi-Powers even more durable. "Browning, on the other hand, forwarded a copy of an internal test report in which it fired 5000 rounds of Remington +P+ 9mm ammunition in a Browning Hi Power pistol. "Inspection of the Hi Power system reveled no unnatural wear to the locking surfaces or any other area. Headspace was checked and found to be acceptable." The conclusion: "...the 9mm Hi Power system appears to be durable enough to withstand long-range [term] shooting of the new ammunition from Remington." Please note that extended or steady use of +P and +P+ ammunition will accelerate wear in modern Hi Powers, as it does in nearly every other handgun. The use of extra power recoil springs (such as a Wolf 18.5lb variant for 9mm) or recoil buffers such as those from Shok-buff can counter this pounding, and add service life to those pistols using the higher pressure ammo. Use of +P and +P+ ammo should be avoided altogether in older Hi Powers however, particularly early WWII specimens. I myself restrict usage of +P ammo to my newer MKIII variants only."

I've been shooting +P and hot handloads out of several Mk III pistols for several years now. They are set up as described via the links above. I've had zero problems.

Best.
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  #3  
Old 12-17-2003, 06:16 PM
hjk hjk is offline
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But the above referenced article by Mas will likely generate some business for Cylinder & Slide.
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  #4  
Old 12-17-2003, 08:38 PM
John F John F is offline
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This reminds me of an article I read in which Mas recommended his readers spend $300 with D&L Sports on a 1911 trigger job with tool steel parts and "Tactical Creep" (I believe that was his term). I wanted to projectile-vomit. You can get creepy triggers right from the factory, for free. What a product pimp!

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  #5  
Old 12-17-2003, 09:29 PM
hdm25 hdm25 is offline
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One or two magazines of +P damaging a hi-power? I guess my carry hi-power is done for, then, because I just put FOUR magazines of +P through it while shooting up old carry ammo.

NATO spec ammo is basically +P and many, many countries have shot A LOT of rounds through hi-powers over the years without the guns falling apart. I don't see how Ayoob came up with that.

As has been pointed out, though, the article should generate some business for C&S. I wonder if Ayoob was needing some custom work done and C&S is doing it for him...?
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  #6  
Old 12-17-2003, 09:32 PM
hdm25 hdm25 is offline
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You know what...?

Ayoob has been really down on hi-powers here recently. A lot of talk about liability when removing the disconnect and other stuff. I remember articles from years gone by where he stated that he carried a hi-power (a custom one) a lot. I even believe that I read that he removed the magazine disconnect. Recently, he has claimed in an article that he didn't have a lot of experience with hi-powers.

Which is it? He's an expert or he isn't. He carries one or he doesn't. Which is it...?
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  #7  
Old 12-17-2003, 09:45 PM
Stephen A. Camp Stephen A. Camp is offline
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Hello. Interesting comments all, but let's get back onto the +P or not in the Hi Power aspect of the original poster.

+P will accelerate wear in the Hi Power as it will in any pistol. I do not believe the Hi Power to be the best test vehicle for long-term, heavy-duty torture testing with a constant diet of hot load in the high-end +P or +P+ 9mm envelope, BUT I have shot a heck of a lot of factory +P and handloaded rounds (124-gr @ 1250 ft/sec or so) down range through both forged and cast frame Hi Powers. Mine have been sprung as mentioned via the link in a separate post and I use a shock buffer. My pistols' mainsprings have been left at 32-lbs as well.

Most of us cannot afford to shoot enough +P to break or wear out a Hi Power.

If this remains a concern (and I am not criticizing at all if it is), I'd go with Speer's 124-gr. std. velocity Gold Dot JHP or Federal's 115-gr. JHP and not worry.

Best.
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  #8  
Old 12-17-2003, 10:02 PM
Nalapombu Nalapombu is offline
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Thanks for the replies. I expected that the article was a bit misleading.
He did say that the mag disconnect should not be removed because of "liability issues." I knew that the Hi Power was a better gun than what he portrayed in the article.
I am just going to have to go and buy me a Hi Power and start enjoying life.

Nala
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  #9  
Old 12-19-2003, 02:34 AM
LAK LAK is offline
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Some of those broken slides Mr. Ayoob refers to may have digested an enormous amount of ammo. Or in some cases perhaps ammo that was unsuitable for any standard service pistol; such as the subgun ammo marked "L7A1" - alot of which has been available at very cheap prices the last several years.
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  #10  
Old 12-19-2003, 05:49 PM
P7 P7 is offline
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Or the company behind the latest wonder 9 he is endorsing as this years must have/must carry told him to say it...
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2003, 05:55 PM
Stephen A. Camp Stephen A. Camp is offline
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Hello. Here are some thoughts if interested:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/B...essureAmmo.htm

Best.
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2003, 05:49 PM
jacketch jacketch is offline
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Although Massad Ayoob has helped bring the legal aspects of carrying and using handguns to the fore, he occasionally goes off the deep end.

I have owned and shot BHP's for over 30 years and have put over 60k rounds of ammo, many NATO spec, through one of them without any damage. Springs were changed, maintenance performed and lots of cleaning done but except for a fair amount of barrel wear the pistol was in good shape when I gave it to a friend.

I would have no fear of using +p or +p+ in a BHP as long as it was well maintained.
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  #13  
Old 12-22-2003, 11:26 PM
Rock185 Rock185 is offline
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I have been shooting the HiPowers since buying my first one new in '66 or '67. I have not put 60K rounds through any one of them, but my experience is similar to Jacketch's and Stephen's. I have used reloads that would now probably be considered +P and +P+( 125's at ~1250, 115's at ~1350-1400fps). I've also used a fair amount of factory +P,+P+ and NATO ammo. This has been used in different "T" series, MKII, MKIII, GP, and a really cruddy, used and abused Inglis. I have never been able to detect any damage or problem with any of them in using this ammo. I enjoy Mas's articles but, I have yet to see any of those broken HP's and I have examined, shot and owned quite a few.
P.S. Stephen, Received your BHP guide. Read and enjoyed it. Good Job !
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  #14  
Old 12-22-2003, 11:27 PM
Stephen A. Camp Stephen A. Camp is offline
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Hello. Thank you.

Best.
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  #15  
Old 01-03-2004, 12:49 PM
care-less care-less is offline
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I really wouldn't worry about it guys! That is unless any of you are independently wealthy and can afford to put 50,000 rounds of +P or +P+ thru your HP. Many years ago I distinctly remember reading Ayoob mentioning how he preferred the 45 ACP, but carried a 9mm Browning HP when overseas due to availability of the round everywhere. Now this was in the days before there were Glocks; who now pay him to praise their pistol. Hell, don't hold it against him; if someone pays me enough, I'll sing the praises of the Hi-Point from one end of the planet to the other; and do my best to convince everyone that it is without a doubt the finest pistol ever manufactured. Of course , it would have to be a LOT of money!!!
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  #16  
Old 03-07-2004, 10:34 AM
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You coulndt sing the praises of a hi point with out laughing.
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  #17  
Old 03-07-2004, 12:49 PM
Bob Reed Bob Reed is offline
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Hello,

I personally think ANY & ALL, HI-POWER articales SHOULD be done by Mr. Leroy Thompson or OUR Very Own Mr.Stephen Camp.

Take Care,
THE SOCKMAN
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  #18  
Old 03-07-2004, 05:48 PM
Stephen A. Camp Stephen A. Camp is offline
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Hello, and thank you very much. I was sitting here trying to remember any broken HP frames or slides and flat cannot recall even one. I KNOW I've not had any, but was thinking about friends and folks I know who shoot them fairly heavily.

None come to mind.

Best.
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  #19  
Old 03-07-2004, 06:57 PM
ranburr ranburr is offline
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My Hi-Power is the only 9mm that I own, it goes well with my 37 .45acps. At any rate I inherited my Belgium Browning from my grandfather who shot it regularly for 40yrs without a hitch. I shoot 5 hi-cap mags a month loaded with Cor-Bon +P which is actually +P+ by any other companies definition. I have been doing this for about 8 yrs and I have never had a problem of any type. Ayoob, went off the reservation years ago and became more enamored with himself and his sponsors. I find it ironic how he tries to pass himself off as super-cop when he has never been more than a small town reservist.

ranburr
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  #20  
Old 03-08-2004, 05:15 PM
Joe S. Joe S. is offline
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I've never been one to count rounds so I don't know how many have gone down my current pistol, bought new around 1979. I know that I did have an earlier, commercial pistol, made in the 50s that cracked the pressed in block in the frame that serves to unlock the barrel under recoil. I had been experimenting with 100 grain Speer hollow-points chronographing at a little above 1400 fps and that did it. It is not uncommon with these earlier pistols that have seen heavy use (or abuse in my case).
These days I just shoot standard pressure loads but I would not hesitate to carry a magazine full of proven reliable plus P if I decided to carry the old girl for defense.
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Old 03-08-2004, 10:01 PM
Texcowboy9 Texcowboy9 is offline
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I, too, have become digusted with Ayoob's bragging and pandering to differant brands. I wonder how many handguns in his collection were received at no charge or at such a minimum charge to be laughable. I figured he had to be a reserve cop to have as much time as he does to travel, write, 'train', testify and pose for intimidating pictures.
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  #22  
Old 03-08-2004, 10:05 PM
Stephen A. Camp Stephen A. Camp is offline
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Hi, fellas. Once again, let's just get back onto the thing about Hi Powers and +P or +P+ ammo w/o getting into personalities. I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone's said or necessarily agreeing, but the rules here are not to do that, and I sure appreciate your help.

Thanks again.
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  #23  
Old 03-09-2004, 01:09 AM
Seraph Seraph is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by care-less
...if someone pays me enough, I'll sing the praises of the Hi-Point from one end of the planet to the other; and do my best to convince everyone that it is without a doubt the finest pistol ever manufactured. Of course , it would have to be a LOT of money!!!
Yeah, and you'd probably be packing a brace of Yost Hi-Powers under your satin Hi-Point windbreaker.

Think Ayoob will be harping the new .45GAP round now?
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  #24  
Old 03-09-2004, 06:34 PM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
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Probably 15 years ago, I wrote to Browning re this issue. The Belgian chap who replied told me that the Hi-Power IS suited for use with NATO and Plus P ammo. This was probably before the tougher Mk. III guns were introduced.

The rub is, he didn't say how frequently it could be shot without trouble. But, as with running full .357 Magnum loads through medium-frame revolvers...how often do you really need powerful ammo? For defense in some circumstances, yes. If in bear country or cougar threat circumstances, sure. And an occasional magazine full to stay aware of the impact point and increased recoil, yes. But a couple or three hundred shots a year, maybe less, should suffice.

I'd guess that a RECENT Hi-Power will withstand that pretty well.

In reading Ayoob's and Frank James's comments about how they've seen all those junked-out Hi-Power parts, they seem to have seen them in the UK. The UK and Venezuela are known to issue very high pressure 9mm ammo. The British stuff is loaded at Radway Green Arsenal. US-loaded Plus P stuff from Remington, etc. isn't that hot, nor are most of us training with the daily intensity of the SAS or the Royal Marine Special Boat Section. We don't have their ammo budget or time!

The SEALS who broke some Berettas also were supposedly using hot rounds that civilians don't ever see, and they shoot a LOT! That said, I think the Browning is probably more durable than a Beretta M951 or M92 series gun, or the Walther P-38, which uses a locking block that was copied by Beretta. (And a slide with thin sides around the locking recesses.)

I'd prefer to shoot hot ammo in a CZ-75, but I honestly think that a Mk. III Browning will hold up quite well (for most of us) with Plus P ammo. And the Browning handles and points so well, that one might easily choose it as his general purpose sidearm. My favorite handgun of all is the Smith & Wesson M66 .357. I use magnum ammo when I think it's warranted, and don't sweat it. I'd do the same with a Hi-Power.

Texas Star
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  #25  
Old 03-09-2004, 10:48 PM
ranburr ranburr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen A. Camp
Hi, fellas. Once again, let's just get back onto the thing about Hi Powers and +P or +P+ ammo w/o getting into personalities. I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone's said or necessarily agreeing, but the rules here are not to do that, and I sure appreciate your help.

Thanks again.
Come on now, if we can't have a little good-natured fun at the expense of public figures, what do we do all day?

ranburr
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