Limp wristing?

[Aleko]

I’m not sure which forum it belongs to, so I’ll start here…

Sorry for a dumb question, but could someone explain what “limp wristing” is? And why is it bad if you do it? Thanks.

In short limp wristing occurs when the wrists let the gun flip up on recoil. It is bad because it can slow the momentum of the rearward motion of the slide in recoil. This has been known to be the culprit of many failures in semi auto handguns.

Proper technique and training is the best cure.

[Aleko]

MarkW,

Thank you for explanation. Now, are you saying I need to keep my wrist firm on recoil? As in "fighting" recoil? I could be wrong, but I think I also read here that you cannot "overpower" recoil no matter how hard you try, so you might as well let it happen, and just learn how to recover and get the muzzle back on target quickly... Am I wrong?

Alex.

[RobWest]

I believe the proper thing to do is keep your arm straight as an arrow and don't contemplate recoil. It will happen, but if you don't expect it and pull back on the gun, it won't limp wrist. Keep your arm straight and don't expect it. Just keep calm, pull the trigger, rinse wash and repeat.


Of course, I'm more than capable of being wrong.

[Real Hawkeye]

You can see what happens when you limp wrist it by shooting one handed with your elbow bent to about 135 degrees (fully locked out being 180 degrees). You need to lock out the elbow, or close to it, to prevent the problem from occurring.

I had been shooting two handed forever (Weaver), and never experienced a jam due to limp wristing until I decided I needed to practice one handed, just in case. Well, the very first shot jammed. That's when I realized that the elbow has to be locked or almost locked out when shooting one handed, or else your arm acts like a big shock absorber, preventing the slide from having enough force to complete its cycle, and causing a jam. It should really be called "limp elbowing it."

That's one advantage of the revolver. If you are injured in a gun fight, and cannot hold a 1911 properly, there is a huge risk of a jam due to failure to fully cycle, while this is not the case with a double action revolver. I still prefer to take my chances with my 1911, however. Held anywhere near properly, it will function flawlessly.

[Aleko]

Real Hawkeye,

I, too, have been shooting mostly two handed. Although my Kimber jammed a few times on me, I wrote it off to a break-in period issue. But it could have been me limp wristing, now that I think about it. After 3-4 weeks of training and paying attention to details, I finally got over beginner's "anticipating recoil syndrome" (well, at least I hope so), so now I'll try to concentrate on my recoil-handling technique. Since I have not had many FTFs or other jamming problems, I think I must have not been limp wristing then, or maybe my Kimber is very good at compensating for it.

I also have tried shooting with one hand (like you said, weak elbow at about 135 degrees), and didn't have any problems either. But, it was with my .22 conversion kit, so had it been .45ACP, results could've been different...

Thank you,
Alex.

[Powderman]

There is one big secret about shooting a 1911 series--and that is the grip.

If you are gripping the gun properly, you will not limp wrist.

I have heard some folks say that the grip on your pistol should be the consistency of a firm handshake. This works well on most handguns, but NOT on the 1911. There are two elements that you MUST use, for accurate shooting and reliable function.

1. Your grip on the 1911 should be as high as possible. This is where a beavertail grip safety really has merits. The pistol must sit low in the hand, to place the bore as close to your hand as possible.

2. Your grip should be adjusted like this. Grab the pistol. Now, try to crush the grip. Go on, squeeze HARD. Squeeze it until the thing shakes in your hand. Now, ease up a bit--until the sights are almost steady, but still shaking just a bit. Now, wrap your other hand around it to stabilize.

When you shoot a .45 this way, you will notice a couple of benefits:

First of all, the gun ejects a LOT better--even with the pud loads you forgot to put enough powder in.

Second, it doesn't matter what kind of round you are using--from 185 grain +P to 230 grain ball loaded hot. It will seem to recoil a lot less.

Next, your recovery time will be cut in half--or better.

Finally, you will notice that your shot groups tighten up considerably, and closer to your point of aim.

Give it a shot! Literally!

[RobWest]

Mm, weaver grips are good for the range, but the Army teaches one-handed stance for a reason. If you're being shot at, holding the weaver stance isn't very easy to do, since you just stand there with a very easy to learn and shoot well stance, but all around useless for being shot at.

In a one handed stance, you can hide behind buildings, pop your head and gun out, and get a much less chance of being shot.

And it's only natural to hide as much as possible when being shot at, so in combat you either have a crap-ton of training in a useless stance, or a little bit of proper stance to get the job done.

Of course, blind luck can help you in the weaver stance, but I prefer to try and cheat my way into being lucky as much as possible.

Again, I'm more than capable of being wrong, so take what I say with a grain of salt (on a side note, I'm getting tired of saying that, never take what anybody says as fact, period is how I look at things).

[Powderman]

Mm, weaver grips are good for the range, but the Army teaches one-handed stance for a reason. If you're being shot at, holding the weaver stance isn't very easy to do, since you just stand there with a very easy to learn and shoot well stance, but all around useless for being shot at.

Rob, I was in the Army for close to 15 years, and was a handgun instructor. The only place I saw the one-handed (duel) stance used was during competition.

The two-handed stances in all of their different iterations (Weaver, Modified Weaver/Chapman, Qwell, Isoceles) have been proven over and over again to be superior for use during armed combat.

Then again, you will fight as you have been trained. On the range, for competition, I practice with the duel stance. In uniform, or when I'm practicing with my duty gun, I almost always use the two handed stance, except for firing from the retention position, or for close quarters shooting.

[elsworth]

I tried extensively to limp wrist my all steel government model. Holding it in the weakest grip I could safely manage (only one finger and a thumb !), the gun would still fire 80% of the time for me over the course of 50 rounds. It made my wrist very sore !

On the other hand, I have found it relatively easy to limp wrist a 9mm Glock with standard pressure ammo. I did not test +P ammo. This may have solved that problem for the Glock?

The biggest trouble to me potentially, other than shooting one handed possibly, is being next to a barracade and "tracking" around the barracade with your wrists, rather than moving your feet. On the other hand, I have seen guys on TV robbing stores and shooting from some very none standard postitions, i.e. arm & gun stuck around corner, and they didn't seem to jam.

Just do some testing of your gun, and see what you seem to be able to get away with.

A normal grip should do.

Zippy

[K1500]

I personally think 'limp wristing' is an over-used excuse for a poorly functioning gun. I have never been able to induce a malfunction in any of my guns by limp wristing, no matter how hard I have tried (yes, that includes Glocks). I'm not saying it can't happen, but I think it indicates somethink slightly amiss with the setup of the gun. That being said, I use a near crush grip when I shoot normally.

[Real Hawkeye]

That is a good point. When I tried the weak one hand hold, it was a lightweight commander. I have never tried my steel framed Ed Brown with a weak one hand hold. I wonder if I can make it fail that way. Will give it a try next time I'm shooting it.

I had a Cheif who carried a Sig 220. Everyone else carried a Glock. The reason he stayed with the Sig was because the Glock would jam on him every time he shot it regardless of who's gun he was shooting. Pick up the Sig, fire to slide lock. Pick up the Glock and he would be jammed by the third round. I same this with my own eyes on more then one occasion. Was it the firearm, probably not since it worked for everyone else. Was it self induced? Maybe, but only the Cheif would know the answer to that.

I think most of what is termed limp wristing is actually the result of the recoil or energy of the slide not being directed down the extended center line of the firearm. In other words the firearm is being held in such away that the recoil is causing the firearm to twist of center to one side or the other.

[K1500]

Ahhh, maybe. I suppose if the grip is limp and the grip is well down on the frame (as opposed to high) this may happen. I will have to give it a try.

[peepaw]

The only FTF caused by limpwristing I have ever seen was a Colt Tactical Officers Lightweight. This gun never malfunctioned with me but it failed to feed when my girlfriend shot it. She is afraid of what she calls big guns (anything bigger than a 22). For some reason this fear of the socalled large caliber translates into a weak grip. It failed to feed everytime she tried to shoot it.

Peepaw

[Manevitch]

Originally posted by Powderman
Your grip should be adjusted like this. Grab the pistol. Now, try to crush the grip. Go on, squeeze HARD. Squeeze it until the thing shakes in your hand. Now, ease up a bit--until the sights are almost steady, but still shaking just a bit. Now, wrap your other hand around it to stabilize.

The tighter you grip the gun the less ability you have to employ fine motor movement - like slowly and gently squeezing the trigger. I keep my strong hand barely attached to the gun and do all the squeezing with my weak hand. Gripping the gun like this I can even remove my strong thumb from the gun entirely and still control recoil. (No, weak thumb is forward of strong thumb along frame, not wrapped around the backstrap)

[LAK]

Actual grip effort with the hands/fingers is a fine balance between too much and too little. Up close requires the most, and this is moderated as range increases for finer placement. But in readiness for fast and furious up close I lean to the firmer for much shooting. Building grip strength and stamina is a crucial element here imo. Various gadgets and exercizes can be employed to improve things all round. Strength and stamina aids finer shooting at longer ranges where a less firm grip is required, as well as trigger control.

Shoulders, arms and wrists require a similar control and balance of muscle tension. While it is not possible in the practical realm to hold a pistol immobile under recoil, it is possible to limit movement to where a whole mag can be hammered into the vital zone at close range. This can be moderated as range and sighting requirement increases accordingly, but the capability and instant available response of what is needed up close is worth emphasizing. Building shoulder, arm and wrist strength is likewise beneficial here.

[Mastrogiacomo]

Just to jump in...I fired one handed recently. Missed all eight... but the first shot jammed. I fixed my stance though -- I think. Rest the non shooting hand by your stomach or in front of your chest? It's incrediably difficult to get used to one hand and keep the gun steady -- from a woman's point of view anyway. Wish there were exercises I could do.

[Mus]

Mas. All I can contribute is I definetly dont like the way many people put the hand they are not using flush with their chest or stomach. Would be a bad habit to form in my opinion--makes it very easy to trap your arm for one thing. Try to keep your hand a few inches out in front of your chest and open as tho you were about to parry a blow to your sternum.

[Mastrogiacomo]

Thanks. Next time I'm at the range trying one handed, I'll get it a shot...

[EdGCNM]

K1500 said that he couldn't create a limp-wristing type of misfeed no matter how lightly he held it. I agree. I shoot bullseye, and have been able to shoot the .45 quite well with a very light grip (if my brain is in the right mood, that is) with no feeding or extraction problems at all. I read that some attempts have been made to duplicate limp-wristing mechanically, firing while the gun was barely restrained at all, and it would still feed reliably with no resistance to recoil.

Having said that, I have certainly limp-wristed a few shots in my day, causing a normally extremely reliable Gold Cup to jam. And some of those were done with quite a firm (one-handed) grip on the gun (a firm grip does tend to make limp-wristing more difficult, mind you). In my experience, limp-wristing is not a function of just a light hold on the gun; nor is it myth or a symptom of something wrong with the gun. I think that it's a more complicated series of motions than just a light grip, however. Something that is very organic and that a simple machine can't duplicate. When it happens (for me, anyway) it is something like a flinch or other reaction to anticipating recoil, that causes the hand and wrist to absorb the recoil in a specific but unusual way, almost like catching a ball. It's a kind of back and forth motion of the hand that seems to throw off the timing of the slide and apply a forward force to it that prevents it from cycling normally.

Has anybody else experienced this and know what I mean?

[Sheldonj]

When I was teaching my son how to shoot the .45 he kept on having various feed problems all of them the result of Limp wristing. A good exercise routine can help with this, and it will help accuracy as well. Try useing a 7lb dumbell and one of those grip springs for the hand.