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  #1  
Old 11-11-2013, 04:46 PM
GWB GWB is offline
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10mm small pistol primer brass




Any of you old 10 vets know where I could find some old Win small primer 10mm brass? I know a few other companys made it for awhile but I prefer Win.
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2013, 08:19 PM
Brauer Brauer is offline
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I've been shooting and reloading 10mm since 1990. Never heard or seen any small primer brass for the caliber.
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  #3  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:41 PM
tsp45acp tsp45acp is offline
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Nope.....all of mine are LPP.
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  #4  
Old 11-13-2013, 02:16 AM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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The only small primer 10MM brass Iíve ever seen is in Federal NT (Non-Toxic) ammunition.
Which is relatively new

Iíve been loading the 10 since the mid-eighties and donít recall seeing any back then
But to be fair, if I did see it I wouldnít have bought any anyway, like why?

I wish people didnít support this small primer in conventional large primer cases
It just makes it easier to contaminate everyoneís inventory

And donít give me that I only use it for ďlost brass matchesĒ crap because there is always some idiot picking it up and bringing it back into the system.

I wish these rookies would wise up and realize supporting this small primer business is not in there long term interest as Handloaders.
I just donít get how people can be so short sighted sometimes.
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2013, 02:44 AM
noisewaterphd noisewaterphd is offline
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Aww man, don't tell me I'm going to have to start sorting my 10mm by primer size now too!! I haven't run into any SPP 10mm yet, but the SPP .45 drives me crazy.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:10 AM
azlou66 azlou66 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noisewaterphd View Post
Aww man, don't tell me I'm going to have to start sorting my 10mm by primer size now too!! I haven't run into any SPP 10mm yet, but the SPP .45 drives me crazy.
+1000 SPP 45 ACP is maddening. Must be a liberal conspiracy to frustrate and dissuade us reloaders.
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:00 AM
Beanie-Bean Beanie-Bean is offline
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I've never seen any, GWB--all of mine is LPP.

I agree with the guys regarding SPP pockets where there are supposed to be LPP, and I've resorted to decapping and sorting all of my .45ACP brass to cull out any of the offending SPP cases. Nothing worse than being in the zone while loading, only to experience a stoppage due to an odd case.

On my 550, 10mm is usually what I'm loading after .45, because of the primer system used.
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2013, 09:19 AM
Daniel Watters Daniel Watters is offline
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Really, I've wanted SPP 10mm brass for years. Then I wouldn't have to swap the primer feed on my progressive press when switching over from .40 S&W. Some 10mm loads would probably benefit from the use of Small Rifle Primers.
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  #9  
Old 11-13-2013, 09:21 AM
Entropic86 Entropic86 is offline
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The shooting industry needs to standardize all the pistol brass to be small pistol only. Large pistol sucks compared to small when it comes to loading, and it gives no advantage over small.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:36 AM
tsp45acp tsp45acp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropic86 View Post
The shooting industry needs to standardize all the pistol brass to be small pistol only. Large pistol sucks compared to small when it comes to loading, and it gives no advantage over small.



Yes it does, it makes it easier to pick up when you drop one.
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  #11  
Old 11-13-2013, 10:35 AM
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I've never seen a 10mm case that accepts small primers. I'd like to return to a standard size (THE standard size) for each cartridge.
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:47 PM
tsp45acp tsp45acp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I've never seen a 10mm case that accepts small primers. I'd like to return to a standard size (THE standard size) for each cartridge.


I've only been reloading since 04/98, and only had a 10mm for less than 2 years....


What is "THE" standard size? Thanks. Tracy
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2013, 01:39 PM
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Every 10mm case made since the early 1980s, until we see evidence of something else, has utilized Large Pistol Primers.
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  #14  
Old 11-13-2013, 04:53 PM
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Hey guys I didnt want to start the large vs small primer debate at all ,and nobody I know is making small primer for 10s.And old timer told me that when 10s came out they were all spp and the reason why was because of there was more meat on the bone as he put it .And what he meant by that was the case was more stout on the rim for the hot 10 loads because of the smaller hole for the primer.He said they pushed the limits on many a case and they held up well because of the smaller hole which in turn had more brass around the base.I was also told there are still some stash piles around the country of these that have never been fired so I wanted some just thought maybe somebody knew about them.And just a side note I do not have a prob with my 45s being big and small no big deal for me .If you guys dont like your smalls send them to me.LoL
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  #15  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:04 PM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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10mm Federal NT is small primer.

Photos in this link.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/385305_.html
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  #16  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
And old timer told me that when 10s came out they were all spp and the reason why was because of there was more meat on the bone as he put it
I have two boxes of 1980s Norma 10mm ammo, and it's LPP. I have also heard some claim that .40 S&W brass is stronger than 10mm, because the former uses small primers, but I have never heard anyone otherwise make a connection between primer size and case strength.
The reason the 10mm case uses LPP is because the designer wanted to help ensure that the round was perceived as being more like .45 - a big bore cartridge - than 9mm. It had more to do with marketing than metallurgy!
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  #17  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:23 PM
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Rick I agree with your views.And until somebody shows me one not the new ones with nt ,I am on board.The oooold timer is really oldand he has been should I say slipping in memory for awhile now.I just want to thank Samuel Colt for saving this gem after the bren -ten disaster.
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  #18  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:24 PM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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10mm operates at around 33,000 psi with a large primer, 257 Roberts around 54,000, laseroni 7.21 66'000, the 50 BMG is also around 54,000 with a really large primer.

Primer size doesn't have much effect on what pressure you can load at.

Last edited by jmorris; 11-13-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:51 PM
BruceM BruceM is offline
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Quote:
The reason the 10mm case uses LPP is because the designer wanted to help ensure that the round was perceived as being more like .45 - a big bore cartridge - than 9mm. It had more to do with marketing than metallurgy!
I wasn't aware that Mike Dixon made that a criteria when he was writing specifications for the 10mm round to be given to Norma but I suspect that because the original load development revolved around the use of shortened .30 Remington cases, I suspect the real reason was more like "let's not fix what isn't broken". The .45 ACP used a LPP and not much further thought was given to the matter but I should go back & check my notes.

Bruce
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  #20  
Old 11-14-2013, 08:06 PM
BruceM BruceM is offline
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One final comment. I'm confident that in Dornaus & Dixon's case, the overriding concern was getting the round thru final development, manufacturing and ready for retail sale and not some obscure subliminal comparison between it and other existing big bore hand gun rounds. Just my semi-educated opinion in view of the circumstances they were operating in at the time.

Bruce
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  #21  
Old 11-15-2013, 02:30 PM
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Original 10mm cases were not manufactured with a small pistol primer. Your "old timer" is wrong. Norma was the original manufacturer to load 10mm and they made all of their 10mm cases with a large pistol pocket.
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2013, 01:41 AM
meatsmith meatsmith is offline
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Originally Posted by TheGerk View Post
I wish people didnít support this small primer in conventional large primer cases

I wish these rookies would wise up and realize supporting this small primer business is not in there long term interest as Handloaders.
I just donít get how people can be so short sighted sometimes.
The big name OEMs do it for economies of scale. More 9mm and .40 ammo is made than 10mm and .45 ammo. If you change your production to only small primers you keep your costs down and you are more efficient. There is no ballistic reason that supports the perception of a benefit of a large primer in either the 10mm or the 45 ACP. A .41 Magnum needs a large primer. Service pistol cartridges, including the .38 Spl and .357 Mag, do not need anything more than a small pistol primer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I have also heard some claim that .40 S&W brass is stronger than 10mm, because the former uses small primers, but I have never heard anyone otherwise make a connection between primer size and case strength.
Pretty simple. More material surrounding the primer pocket the more rigid it is and the stronger it is. It's engineering science. That is why the .40 S&W case can take a lot more pressure before the head will rupture. That is also why the .454 has a small (rifle) primer. Stronger case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
10mm operates at around 33,000 psi with a large primer, 257 Roberts around 54,000, laseroni 7.21 66'000, the 50 BMG is also around 54,000 with a really large primer.
The 10mm operates at 37,500 SAAMI MAP.
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  #23  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:37 AM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGerk
I wish people didn’t support this small primer in conventional large primer cases

I wish these rookies would wise up and realize supporting this small primer business is not in there long term interest as Handloaders.
I just don’t get how people can be so short sighted sometimes.
The big name OEMs do it for economies of scale. More 9mm and .40 ammo is made than 10mm and .45 ammo. If you change your production to only small primers you keep your costs down and you are more efficient. There is no ballistic reason that supports the perception of a benefit of a large primer in either the 10mm or the 45 ACP. A .41 Magnum needs a large primer. Service pistol cartridges, including the .38 Spl and .357 Mag, do not need anything more than a small pistol primer.

Yes, I agree, most know and understand this
But my point is, just because they (manufactures) do this, does not mean you have to support it.

If you look throughout the history of firearms and ammunition including components, there are numerous incidents of calibers and guns that went the “wayside” due to lack of support from the shooting and Handloading public.

Most experienced shooters and Handloaders know this and don’t support this “dual primer” approach as it just adds more hap-hazard loading conditions to the Handloader.

Additionally I don’t want to pay higher cost for someone to separate these components in the pulled and once fired market which if not happening now will in the future as more and more of this small primer stuff enters the market as it will affect somebodies “rice bowl” to do so.

Right now rookie Handloaders don’t care cause there just grateful to get something to “Load” with.
But after a while developing your “inventory” you really don’t want this stuff contaminating your stock from a practical position.
Finally, part of the foundation of Handloading is basic efficiency
Why stock both primer sizes when this is not needed to perform the needed function?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB
I have also heard some claim that .40 S&W brass is stronger than 10mm, because the former uses small primers, but I have never heard anyone otherwise make a connection between primer size and case strength.

Pretty simple. More material surrounding the primer pocket the more rigid it is and the stronger it is. It's engineering science. That is why the .40 S&W case can take a lot more pressure before the head will rupture. That is also why the .454 has a small (rifle) primer. Stronger case.

I load for the 454 and understand the premise
BUT, this “reasoning” is not always necessary, needed or equally applied.
In other words, say for the sake of argument using the SP in the 10 generates ~ 10 - 15% more strength in the case head.
Great!...but this does nothing to “strengthen” the rest of the case so the point is mute.
See, the “logic” doesn’t transfer to ALL calibers and cases
It does make sense in the 454 because the WHOLE case is rated to handle the 65,000 PSI of the 454's loading MAP
See the difference?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorris
10mm operates at around 33,000 psi with a large primer, 257 Roberts around 54,000, laseroni 7.21 66'000, the 50 BMG is also around 54,000 with a really large primer.

The 10mm operates at 37,500 SAAMI MAP. Agreed

Good Luck
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  #24  
Old 11-16-2013, 06:21 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Let's start a petition or movement!

I have long suspected there is really not much difference in using a small vs. large pistol primer to ignite a powder charge, but the amount of brisance may make a difference, which is why there are small magnum and small rifle primers in addition to small pistol primers. I have also been told that small rifle primers have a thicker cup to take more pressure with less chance of primer flow back or firing pin smearing.....don't know if that is true but it sounds plausible. I have used small rifle primers in .38 super reloading for many years without issues.

If there is no need to use large pistol primers for handgun reloading, and the case head is stronger using a SPP (as evidenced in the .454 Casull cases using SPP) how can we start a movement to standardize all pistol cases to using small primer pockets to accept the small primer of their choice?

It seems like just because of tradition, we are forced to use large pistol primers when there is no need.....for that matter, why do we have Berdan primed cases?

I would gladly recycle all my large primer handgun brass if the world mfg's of handgun brass standardized all handgun brass to use small primer pockets. If this fantasy were ever realized, it would take a few years to flush out all the remaining military and LE ammo that still uses calibers with large primer pockets. My second wish is to standardize all firearm brass to eliminate using Berdan primed cases....but that is another story!

Last edited by richpetrone; 11-16-2013 at 06:27 AM.
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  #25  
Old 11-16-2013, 08:05 AM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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The 10mm operates at 37,500 SAAMI MAP.
Yeah, it's 33,360 C.I.P max.

Even at SAAMI pressures, much lower than other rounds using primers of the same diameter or larger. Thus the point that the diameter of the primer does not directly relate to the pressure a round operates at.
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