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  #1  
Old 10-27-2013, 09:06 AM
Nathan Nathan is offline
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Should I sell most of my guns. . . .




for a new high end 1911? I'm cash strapped though.

Basically, I have a few guns in my posession which I shoot, carry and use less than 2 times a year.

I think with a little luck, I can get together $4000, but that would be hard. . .real hard. It would be much less painful to get together ~$2000.

I want a CCO type pistol with an aluminum frame, ramped barrel 4 - 4.25" barrel and 100% reliable for monthly practice, CCW, and IDPA. This will probably be about 1000 rounds a year.

My desired specs:
- Frame: Compact Aluminum, no rail
- Trigger: No holes, natural finish, overtravel stop
- Trigger pull: ~4lb with minimal take up and no overtravel
- Firing Pin Safety: Ideally yes, but I can do without
- Thumb Safety: single sided shape of Wilson tactical
- Slide Stop: ideally a short extended, but not required(yes, I know the good and bad of this type)
- Beavertail: with good fit
- Mags: 5 Quality mags which hold 7rds and feed without issue + 5 quality mags which hold 10 rounds
- Slide: Any tasteful rollmark(or none), serrated top, serrated back
- Sights: .125" Tritium front, U shape rear with serrated back face, vertical front side to catch on pants or holster for slide manipulation
- Barrel: Ramped, match grade, SS
- Reliability: Glocklike or better.
- Caliber: 45 ACP
- Finish: DLC would be ideal. . .Cerakote would also be OK.
- Grips: Ivory or good wood

So, I've narrowed it down to a couple of choices:

CZ Dan Wesson CCO $1560:
This is pretty close to what I want and it has been written that these are near custom pistols. What are your thoughts? Is this thing in the league with a true custom. . .close?

Wilson Ultralight Carry Compact $3650:
Super gun. Hard to argue with Wilson name and build quality. The trouble is it is near the top of my price range and is not a perfect match to the specs. Actually, the finish, I believe will be unacceptable long term. I believe they will not send out for your finish of choice either.

Wilson Bill Wilson Carry Pistol $3200
Similar to the above gun, but cheaper. . .Still quite a bit of compromise at this price.

Wilson XTAC Compact $2800
Price is getting better and I'll bet Wilson would do the upgrades to get me close to spec, but finish is parkerized. . . .I guess I could replace with Cerakote in 5 years when I decide it is too rough.

Les Baer Stinger $1900 - $2000
A little off spec, but priced to maybe be a base for a custom build??

or a full custom by a "name" gunsmith. . .Who would build this gun for you?
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2013, 09:36 AM
HKmanlp1 HKmanlp1 is offline
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Just my opinion. But for the money Les Baer is the best 1911 out there for the price. You can buy ammo, take a class, and buy a lot of accessories with what you'd save over some of the other choices. I don't think Baer does any aluminum models anymore.
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2013, 09:52 AM
Denver1911 Denver1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
for a new high end 1911? I'm cash strapped though.

Basically, I have a few guns in my posession which I shoot, carry and use less than 2 times a year.

I think with a little luck, I can get together $4000, but that would be hard. . .real hard. It would be much less painful to get together ~$2000.

I want a CCO type pistol with an aluminum frame, ramped barrel 4 - 4.25" barrel and 100% reliable for monthly practice, CCW, and IDPA. This will probably be about 1000 rounds a year.

My desired specs:
- Frame: Compact Aluminum, no rail
- Trigger: No holes, natural finish, overtravel stop
- Trigger pull: ~4lb with minimal take up and no overtravel
- Firing Pin Safety: Ideally yes, but I can do without
- Thumb Safety: single sided shape of Wilson tactical
- Slide Stop: ideally a short extended, but not required(yes, I know the good and bad of this type)
- Beavertail: with good fit
- Mags: 5 Quality mags which hold 7rds and feed without issue + 5 quality mags which hold 10 rounds
- Slide: Any tasteful rollmark(or none), serrated top, serrated back
- Sights: .125" Tritium front, U shape rear with serrated back face, vertical front side to catch on pants or holster for slide manipulation
- Barrel: Ramped, match grade, SS
- Reliability: Glocklike or better.
- Caliber: 45 ACP
- Finish: DLC would be ideal. . .Cerakote would also be OK.
- Grips: Ivory or good wood

So, I've narrowed it down to a couple of choices:

CZ Dan Wesson CCO $1560:
This is pretty close to what I want and it has been written that these are near custom pistols. What are your thoughts? Is this thing in the league with a true custom. . .close?

Wilson Ultralight Carry Compact $3650:
Super gun. Hard to argue with Wilson name and build quality. The trouble is it is near the top of my price range and is not a perfect match to the specs. Actually, the finish, I believe will be unacceptable long term. I believe they will not send out for your finish of choice either.

Wilson Bill Wilson Carry Pistol $3200
Similar to the above gun, but cheaper. . .Still quite a bit of compromise at this price.

Wilson XTAC Compact $2800
Price is getting better and I'll bet Wilson would do the upgrades to get me close to spec, but finish is parkerized. . . .I guess I could replace with Cerakote in 5 years when I decide it is too rough.

Les Baer Stinger $1900 - $2000
A little off spec, but priced to maybe be a base for a custom build??

or a full custom by a "name" gunsmith. . .Who would build this gun for you?
Dan Wesson: a good buy for certain. I have a DW and it is nicely fit, has quality components, and "feels" great. A Wilson Combat it is not. But it's half the price too. On your budget, I would look hard at this gun.

Bill Wilson Carry: a winner for sure. Although it doesn't meet your specs. How important are your specs for the items it doesn't meet.

XTAC compact: I also think this is a good value. However, the steel frame may not work for as well as other specs. You can have this gun in Armor Tough (similar, if not better, than Cerakote). There's a black over gray AT finished on on gunbroker right now for $2500. I'd look hard at an XTAC.
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2013, 09:57 AM
jrussell9109 jrussell9109 is offline
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Dan Wesson are a very nice 1911 for the price. If you are want a true custom though without a huge bill I would check out Fusion Firearms plus you can choose your finish and your options.
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2013, 10:04 AM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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I'm a big proponent of "if you don't use and/or enjoy a firearm, and it has no sentimental value, get rid of it for something you will use". I also tho, do not think spending big bucks for a high end firearm when one is "cash Strapped" is putting your priorities in the correct order. You have told us what you want, but not what the intended usage is.(just that you want a CCO "type") That would help in determining whether $1500 DW would work as well as the Wilsons for twice as much. IMHO, For EDC........a $1000 Colt or SA will work just as well as anything more expensive.
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  #6  
Old 10-27-2013, 10:13 AM
knotwild knotwild is offline
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If you are strapped for cash, my suggestion would be to get your financial house in order and build some savings for life's unforeseen incidents. If you are strapped for cash and spend the money on a high end gun, you will probably always be strapped for cash, or in an even worse financial situation.

When you have everything in order, then reward yourself with a pistol.
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  #7  
Old 10-27-2013, 10:31 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knotwild View Post
If you are strapped for cash, my suggestion would be to get your financial house in order and build some savings for life's unforeseen incidents. If you are strapped for cash and spend the money on a high end gun, you will probably always be strapped for cash, or in an even worse financial situation.

When you have everything in order, then reward yourself with a pistol.
Great post. If you are strapped for money the last thing you need to do is buy an expensive hand gun.
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2013, 10:44 AM
Denver1911 Denver1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
for monthly practice, CCW, and IDPA. This will probably be about 1000 rounds a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR View Post
You have told us what you want, but not what the intended usage is.(just that you want a CCO "type") That would help in determining whether $1500 DW would work as well as the Wilsons for twice as much.
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2013, 10:54 AM
Nathan Nathan is offline
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First, purpose:

Quote:
for monthly practice, CCW, and IDPA. This will probably be about 1000 rounds a year.
That is my purpose. That would replace the purposes of those other guns.

"cash strapped"
I probably used that term too loosely. I know there are people who really are cash strapped. I have what I need. I have my bills current. We are living ok. If I were to tell my wife, "sweetie, I'm going to sell all these guns to buy my dream gun," she would be ok. If I said, "I'm going to sell my guns and add $2000 to get my dream gun," we would not be happy with that decision. This is my point. I see so many of these threads go the direction of add $2000 to your $3500 and get what you really want. I want to avoid that. If a full custom from a good smith is more than $4000, I need to scrap that thought.


Finish:
Here is my thought on finish and why it is a key spec. I have a Kahr DLC and it wears incredibly well. I have a Glock 21 and it wears pretty well. I have a SA 1911 with SA with a blue slide and it would be trashed if I ran it hard. I want to run this gun hard. IMO, Cerakote and DLC are the best way to do this in a 1911. Melonite is OK, but I really don't want to get 1911 parts that hot and you cannot Melonite AL, unless this is changing.

So, tell me more about improved Armor Tuff. . .Is it really as good or better than Cerakote?

Sights:
This is a key spec, but a rear sight could be changed to get where I'm going.

Aluminum:
Not sure I need this, but it sure looks good in terms of weight! If I give this up, I will likely go Wilson XTAC. . .That really is a good gun, and I could keep the kids AR at that price!

My issue with the Dan Wesson CCO is just that this will be a hard purchase to make, but it needs to be a super high quality CCW purchase. Is Dan Wesson up to that level?
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2013, 11:10 AM
bigggbbruce bigggbbruce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
Great post. If you are strapped for money the last thing you need to do is buy an expensive hand gun.
Just means someone will get a good deal on a used one later...
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  #11  
Old 10-27-2013, 11:30 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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The gun you're describing is the Para LTC. Commander sized, check. Aluminum frame, check. Ramped barrel, check. Firing pin safety, check. Plus, Novak-style sights, beavertail grip safety, and an extended thumb safety. I have one and carry it frequently. I changed out the extended thumb safety for a Series 70/80 style so that it couldn't snag on clothing and come off safe by accident. It's a great gun.
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2013, 11:30 AM
I12BFree I12BFree is offline
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Money has always been tight for us. We sold our underused guns and scrimped for a year to pay for a Nighthawk Custom for her.

We scrimped for another year to buy a Volkmann for me.

No bills went unpaid or were paid late while on our quest for our handguns.
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2013, 11:31 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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Sorry, I forgot to mention the best part: it's way under $1000.
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:02 PM
Nathan Nathan is offline
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Looks like Fusion could build this also and get it pretty close to what I'm looking for. They arre a little less known by me, but I think they've been making CCO's for a few years. Any thoughts on going Fusion. That looks like it could be a full custom for under $3000 depending on options and upgrades.

If you have used Fusion, how did your Fusion built gun turn out?
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  #15  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:24 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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I would at least look at a Colt WC Commander.
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:31 PM
jeffnles1 jeffnles1 is offline
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I'm just a soon to be retired old fart gun nut so take my advice with a decent sized grain of salt.

If you have guns you don't want any more and are going to sell them anyway, might as well sell them and put the funds toward something you want.

If you were not already going to sell the other guns, I'd say keep them and save up your money over the next months/years to get the dream gun you want.

If you're strapped for cash, it's a lot easier to turn over an inexpensive firearm to pay some bills than it is to turn over a really expensive firearm (unless you want to lose your shirt). In fact, a custom gun is something you'll probably never get your money back, but a Glock, Sig, Springfield, Ruger and even Colt is something you can sell and not lose your shirt. You'll not get all the money back unless you bought it right but you're not going to lose half its value either. There are only so many people wanting to spend $3K on a used gun.

Also, if you're going to be running this gun hard, why get one with an aluminum alloy frame? I'd rather have a steel frame on a gun I was going to push hard and shoot the snot out of in competition. Just me though.

Jeff
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:49 PM
DWCoyote DWCoyote is offline
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As for the question of whether you should sell guns from your collection to fund your dream gun, only you can decide. I have been there and done it a couple times. One thing I would suggest is to look at how replaceable the guns you are selling are. I have sold off very generic guns that I could replace any day. I have never replaced them and never regretted it.

I have also sold off guns that were not so replaceable and really missed them at times. I sold a mint Longbranch Enfield that was gorgeous and more accurate than an Enfield should ever be. I will never be able to replace that. I sold an HK P7M8 right before the prices shot up too. I could replace it but where the prices are I probably never will. Think hard before you make the move.

From what I have seen, Fusion and DW on about equal for quality. That is to say that both are very high quality. But with Fusion you can get it however you like it - for more money. The reports I have heard from Dave Severns and a couple other gunsmiths is that the internal DW parts are better on the 2010 and newer guns than what Fusion is using.

As for the Aluminum frame, I have never seen a 1911 aluminum frame wearing out or cracking but I have heard of very high round counts Sigs and Berettas cracking. I am sure there is a lifespan difference but at 1000 rounds a year either would likely last your lifetime. The aluminum would be better for carry. The steel better for shooting.

One thought, If $3500+ is in the budget, what if you got two guns instead of one? CCO for the carry and full size steel DW Valor or Les Baer for the IDPA and such?

Wilsons and the like are very very nice but from my experience rarely actually outperform a DW at the range (Take this with a grain of salt as I am a DW fanboy ). The fitting of certain parts may be better, there will be more custom features, and lots more cachet, but they don't put rounds on target any better or more reliably for me.

Honestly, If I was going to spend 3-4 grand on a pistol I would probably bypass the Browns and Wilsons and step up to a full house custom pistol from a gunsmith whose work spoke to me.

Well, there is my 2 cents worth of free advice. No refunds.
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:54 PM
DWCoyote DWCoyote is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnles1 View Post
I'm just a soon to be retired old fart gun nut so take my advice with a decent sized grain of salt.

If you have guns you don't want any more and are going to sell them anyway, might as well sell them and put the funds toward something you want.

If you were not already going to sell the other guns, I'd say keep them and save up your money over the next months/years to get the dream gun you want.

If you're strapped for cash, it's a lot easier to turn over an inexpensive firearm to pay some bills than it is to turn over a really expensive firearm (unless you want to lose your shirt). In fact, a custom gun is something you'll probably never get your money back, but a Glock, Sig, Springfield, Ruger and even Colt is something you can sell and not lose your shirt. You'll not get all the money back unless you bought it right but you're not going to lose half its value either. There are only so many people wanting to spend $3K on a used gun.

Also, if you're going to be running this gun hard, why get one with an aluminum alloy frame? I'd rather have a steel frame on a gun I was going to push hard and shoot the snot out of in competition. Just me though.

Jeff
Very good post! Jeff is steering you right. High end gun are definitely harder to sell used because the people who have the cash for high dollar purchases are more likely to go new. If you are the type of person who is always buying, selling, and horse-trading, make sure you factor that in.
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  #19  
Old 10-27-2013, 01:22 PM
Kadonny Kadonny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWCoyote View Post
Very good post! Jeff is steering you right. High end gun are definitely harder to sell used because the people who have the cash for high dollar purchases are more likely to go new. If you are the type of person who is always buying, selling, and horse-trading, make sure you factor that in.
Yup, that's why the Dan Wesson is perfect. It's a higher end 1911 but still very affordable and very sought after on the used market.
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  #20  
Old 10-27-2013, 02:30 PM
gunslingergirl gunslingergirl is offline
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OK, my two cent. I am relatively well, off, I can afford any gun I want. I will probably at some point buy a WC, just to have one or maybe some tricked race gun. But my top end guns are DW. Smooooth trigger, good looks, good value.

If you don't have at least 1/2 mil in your investment accounts and a solid 6 figure income, buying a $4,000 gun is not a wise investment or recreational choice. And your wife isn't going to appreciate it like a good bath remodel or kitchen update.

Use that money for the down payment on a cheap rental property in the hood, and let it buy your guns fir you from the income.

That, is how you get rich. (One way anyway.)
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  #21  
Old 10-27-2013, 02:54 PM
bflying bflying is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunslingergirl View Post
OK, my two cent. I am relatively well, off, I can afford any gun I want. I will probably at some point buy a WC, just to have one or maybe some tricked race gun. But my top end guns are DW. Smooooth trigger, good looks, good value.

If you don't have at least 1/2 mil in your investment accounts and a solid 6 figure income, buying a $4,000 gun is not a wise investment or recreational choice. And your wife isn't going to appreciate it like a good bath remodel or kitchen update.

Use that money for the down payment on a cheap rental property in the hood, and let it buy your guns fir you from the income.

That, is how you get rich. (One way anyway.)
Great post! But whoh, how many proposals have you had in the last 30 minutes? Nothing is hotter than a woman that can handle guns and investments.
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  #22  
Old 10-27-2013, 02:56 PM
Oldsalt65 Oldsalt65 is offline
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I have nothing against aluminum frames on pistols that incorporate them into their original design, but for a high end 1911 that you will be shooting regularly I would suggest a steel frame even if you are going to be carrying it as your CCW.
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  #23  
Old 10-27-2013, 03:17 PM
Raylan Givens Raylan Givens is offline
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Unless you just have to have the officer sized frame. I would go with a Wilson Professional Lightweight. Spec.it how you like it and then contact George with Gunslingers. Migunslingers.com

As far as selling guns. If you have a bunch of them you don't like and don't shoot/carry, go for it.
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  #24  
Old 10-27-2013, 03:43 PM
Roland Rock Roland Rock is offline
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for that use, I'd pick the Dan Wesson. It can be a heart breaker to watch the EDC wear happen on a show piece.

If I was going to jump into the bleeding edge /diminishing return / support an artisans zen like pursuit of perfection in metal, cost be damned, I think I'd see if I could get in line at Rogers Precision.
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  #25  
Old 10-27-2013, 03:51 PM
Denver1911 Denver1911 is offline
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IMHO, a Wilson Combat CQB, XTAC, or BWC finished in AT is NOT a showpiece. It is more like a warhorse. EDC leads to wear. That's ok. It adds to the mystique. The guy with a $3,000 1911 in showroom condition doesn't impress. A guy (or gal) with a $3,000 shooter with some wear does.
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