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  #1  
Old 10-14-2013, 11:06 PM
GilaMonster GilaMonster is offline
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Ransom Rest Results




Anybody here have pictures of targets shot at 25 yards with a 1911 in a Ransom Rest? I'd like to see them to see what your results look like...

My shooting buddy just got a Ransom Rest, and we took it out for its first exercise today. We shot his Kimber and my Ruger 1911s with it. He has a SA, a Colt Commander and I have a Colt LW Commander that we did not shoot with it today, as he needs to modify the grip inserts for the palm swells on the grip safeties on those guns.

So my question is, what do your 'groups' look like? We both expected the guns to produce better 10-round groups with the RR than we do off sandbags... but not so much. We tried a variety of our handloaded combinations (200-gr SWC, 225-gr LRN, Titegroup, WST, Bullseye, and some Golden Sabre factory SD loads by Remington).

Neither the Kimber nor the Ruger shot appreciably better than the other, and almost all of the groups had 'fliers' that can't be explained.

I guess we both expected some tight, one inch, POA/POI groups using the RR, but that was not what we got.

So, I am wondering if some of you have some 25-yd targets you could post, so we can see if the resemble ours.

Also, any suggestions anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated...
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  #2  
Old 10-15-2013, 01:23 AM
ClarkEMyers ClarkEMyers is offline
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The conventional wisdom is more settling shots for more consistent results.

No question that shooting from a Ransom Rest is an acquired skill that demands practice. It can be useful to practice with a rim fire or other both cheaper and less stressful firearm.

How is the Ransom Rest mounted? Hard to get a really solid mount with a portable setup.
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  #3  
Old 10-15-2013, 07:43 AM
JoeJ JoeJ is offline
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No pictures but like Clark alluded to - you need a rock solid bench. Follow the companies suggestions on the base - I think Ransom still recommends 3/4 to 1" base plate that you attach the rest to - use the 1", as you want the most non-flexible base plate possible and then add the 2 wood strips that your C-clamps attach to when mounting to your firing bench - hopefully, the firing bench is rock solid as well. plywood is OK but oak is probably better for the base plate.

As you're finding out - the ransom rest needs proper setup and guidance from an experienced ransom rest driver - it's an acquired skill.
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  #4  
Old 10-15-2013, 11:03 AM
al45 al45 is online now
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As both JoeJ & Clark mentioned. Rock solid base. I run at least 10 rounds through the pistol first to settle it into the grip adaptors.

How did the pistols shoot when shot over bags? Are the results similar?

Remember your results are relative to other groups shot with the ransom rest under the same conditions and grip tensions. The RR won't shoot any single group better than you can shoot it off sandbags, however it will be consistent over many groups where hand held groups will be subject to shooter fatigue. I can't remember who said it on the Bullseye list, but several years back they mentioned that the RR won't show the best a pistol/group combination can do, it showed the worst or at best the average the group will do.

I use mind for comparative analysis, but it's not the perfect answer. I always double check my results by hand groups shot on bags.
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  #5  
Old 10-15-2013, 01:35 PM
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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Hmmm, interesting comments al45. I would think a vise like the Ransom Rest would eliminate most of the variables external to the gun. But, if not used properly can certainly raise as many questions as it answers.

GilaMonster,
Did you have the rest bolted/clamped to the bench? How did you actuate the trigger? I've seen some with a little lever and some with a string. You'll have the same trouble with the rest as you would shooting by hand if you jerk the trigger.
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  #6  
Old 10-15-2013, 03:30 PM
GilaMonster GilaMonster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkEMyers View Post
The conventional wisdom is more settling shots for more consistent results.

by the end of our session yesterday, we fired 100 or more .45s --- If more 'settling' than that was required, we're in trouble.

No question that shooting from a Ransom Rest is an acquired skill that demands practice. It can be useful to practice with a rim fire or other both cheaper and less stressful firearm.

Beside the set-up of the rest... what kind of additional skill is required? The whole idea of the RR is to eliminate the human error. Gently depress the lever to activate the trigger... what else?
Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't see what skill is required...


How is the Ransom Rest mounted? Hard to get a really solid mount with a portable setup.
It's securely attached to a sturdy steel tool stand, weighted down by about 60 lbs of sandbags. It does NOT move.
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  #7  
Old 10-15-2013, 03:33 PM
GilaMonster GilaMonster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
No pictures but like Clark alluded to - you need a rock solid bench. Follow the companies suggestions on the base - I think Ransom still recommends 3/4 to 1" base plate that you attach the rest to - use the 1", as you want the most non-flexible base plate possible and then add the 2 wood strips that your C-clamps attach to when mounting to your firing bench - hopefully, the firing bench is rock solid as well. plywood is OK but oak is probably better for the base plate.

As you're finding out - the ransom rest needs proper setup and guidance from an experienced ransom rest driver - it's an acquired skill.

Can you elaborate? Once the rest is positioned and solid, what more is there to learn? Is there a particular trick to activating the lever?
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  #8  
Old 10-15-2013, 03:39 PM
bjeffv bjeffv is offline
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First time I used a ransom rest I weighed it down with 75lbs of lead, and outlined the edges. It moved with every shot by a few millimeters.

The set up a gun smith uses at my range that I will soon copy is as follows: Four set screws are preset into the concrete floor, a steel welded box is then bolted into those. A ransom rest attached to a wood board is then bolted to the steel box. He uses a string to gently pull the lever (slowly), and shoots no more than a shot a minute. He has said that unless its bolted into solid concrete there is always the risk of some movement.

He can get 5-shot one hole groups all day. (with the guns he builds)

Also if the ammo you are using isn't capable of good groups, you won't get good groups even using a ransom rest.

Last edited by bjeffv; 10-15-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-15-2013, 03:56 PM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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Like the good fellow above, I bolt. Not sandbag. I use 6 half inch bolts.

The 'skill' isn't a trick in pulling the trigger lever or anything.
You'll have to put some rounds in to see what it takes
to lock down the grip inserts, to adjust the big spring,
to lock down the windage adjustment (if you have it installed),
what it takes to bolt or clamp or otherwise anchor it,
and so on. Learning to be solid and consistent.


The best mounting method, whenever possible, is
a Vulcan meld of the steel RR frame into a 60 ton granite boulder,
then solidly anchor the boulder to the core of the Earth itself.
There! That oughta do it.
Otherwise it's gonna move.
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  #10  
Old 10-15-2013, 04:53 PM
GilaMonster GilaMonster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Hmmm, interesting comments al45. I would think a vise like the Ransom Rest would eliminate most of the variables external to the gun. But, if not used properly can certainly raise as many questions as it answers.

Agreed. I think that is the actual purpose of the rest... to eliminate all but the function of the gun.

GilaMonster,
Did you have the rest bolted/clamped to the bench? How did you actuate the trigger? I've seen some with a little lever and some with a string. You'll have the same trouble with the rest as you would shooting by hand if you jerk the trigger.
It is securely (12 bolts) attached to a 1/4" steel plate, which in turn is securely attached to a 4-legged steel tool stand, weighted down with 60+ lbs of sandbags. It does not move. The trigger is actuated by a lever on the RR. When the lever is depressed, the only thing that moves is the trigger. Very smooth, with no jerking or movement.
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  #11  
Old 10-15-2013, 05:03 PM
al45 al45 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick A View Post
The best mounting method, whenever possible, is
a Vulcan meld of the steel RR frame into a 60 ton granite boulder,
then solidly anchor the boulder to the core of the Earth itself.
There! That oughta do it.
Otherwise it's gonna move.
This would be considered adequate!

When I set up my RR, it is mounted on a 1" thick plywood slab that has a front & rear spacer about 3/4" thick and 2" wide. (You won't get as good results if your base is mounted flat on the concrete) then it is c clamped onto a solid concrete shooting bench with 4" steel legs. Even with that, if I shifted when using it (the seats are mounted on the rear pipe) I can see the dot move on the target, so now I stand beside the RR when testing.

I also never shoot the first round out of the magazine into the test group, always bury it into the impact berm.

My testing sequence for one ten shot load test:
Load 7, 1 into the berm, next 5 into the test target, drop the magazine and load the same magazine with 4, shoot the next 5 into the group. I started doing that when I noticed the first round out of the magazine would frequently be the flier out of the group. Perhaps dropping the slide changed something, and was just different enough than the slide stripping the next round out of the magazine in recoil. All I know is I have fewer fliers now.
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  #12  
Old 10-15-2013, 05:17 PM
GilaMonster GilaMonster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjeffv View Post
Also if the ammo you are using isn't capable of good groups, you won't get good groups even using a ransom rest.
True! And obviously, that is one of the reasons to use the rest... determine where/how accurately the gun shoots, then compare the results with different ammo, to determine how well the ammo shoots.

The rest should eliminate the 'human error' part of the equation...
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  #13  
Old 10-15-2013, 05:26 PM
GilaMonster GilaMonster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al45 View Post

My testing sequence for one ten shot load test:
Load 7, 1 into the berm, next 5 into the test target, drop the magazine and load the same magazine with 4, shoot the next 5 into the group. I started doing that when I noticed the first round out of the magazine would frequently be the flier out of the group. Perhaps dropping the slide changed something, and was just different enough than the slide stripping the next round out of the magazine in recoil. All I know is I have fewer fliers now.
We also found that the first shot often is a flier...

not sure exactly what to attribute it to, but it is not unlike a cold-barrel shot from a rifle.
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  #14  
Old 10-15-2013, 05:32 PM
Tdub Tdub is offline
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Just go over to the "let's see your group" thread...no need for a ransom, just ask them to shoot it for you the way some of them shoot (or claim) you should get the same results..JMO
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  #15  
Old 10-15-2013, 05:39 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Not a random rest, but you may get something out of it for your study. I shot these two handed standing, Wilson Combat Tactical Elite. 230G 45 HST HP, 25yards:
Attached Thumbnails
best 25 yard group so far.jpg  
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  #16  
Old 10-15-2013, 05:59 PM
penman53 penman53 is offline
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Ransom rest at 25 yards

Can I ask why you are ransom resting any 1911 at 25 yards? I'm a bullseye shooter and we never waste our time with how a gun shoots at 25 yards. If the gun groups under three inches at 50 yards then you have a shooter. You can see how your 1911 shoots just as well off a bag and save all the setup time for trying to get the ransom rest to work.

At our club we have a piece of 8 inch oilfield pipe sunk in the ground with a 1/4 in piece of steel plate welded to it. We then bolt down the windage base and then the upper rest to it. We then put the gun in the adapter for whatever gun you want to test and yes fire about 10 rounds through the gun to get the thing warmed up.

No offense on you wanting to know how your gun shoots but using the rest for 25 yards is kind of a waste of time.
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  #17  
Old 10-15-2013, 06:08 PM
LouisianaJoe LouisianaJoe is offline
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I find that if I run several dry patches thru the barrel, It makes the first round flyer a little better, but not perfect.

That first round is conditioning the barrel for your bullets by cleaning any residue out like grease or dust.
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  #18  
Old 10-15-2013, 06:16 PM
Tdub Tdub is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penman53 View Post
Can I ask why you are ransom resting any 1911 at 25 yards? I'm a bullseye shooter and we never waste our time with how a gun shoots at 25 yards. If the gun groups under three inches at 50 yards then you have a shooter. You can see how your 1911 shoots just as well off a bag and save all the setup time for trying to get the ransom rest to work.

At our club we have a piece of 8 inch oilfield pipe sunk in the ground with a 1/4 in piece of steel plate welded to it. We then bolt down the windage base and then the upper rest to it. We then put the gun in the adapter for whatever gun you want to test and yes fire about 10 rounds through the gun to get the thing warmed up.

No offense on you wanting to know how your gun shoots but using the rest for 25 yards is kind of a waste of time.
We are not all big bad bullseye shooters. In my Steel competitions the farthest shot is 35yds and that is probably just one stage. Most of my shots are 8-20 yrds. Not much sense setting my gun up for 50yrds when my average shot is around 20 yds.
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  #19  
Old 10-15-2013, 06:35 PM
beerman beerman is offline
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al45's test sequence is the way to do it right.
I have noticed that nobody commented on that .
The first round chambered by the operator is different than all following rounds by the cycling pistol .
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  #20  
Old 10-15-2013, 06:45 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Our old range had a Ransom Rest base on a steel plate with bolts grouted into a piece of 24" concrete pipe based in concrete and filled with rubble and concrete. It wasn't going anywhere.

It STILL took care to get good groups from accurate pistols. Tension on the grip plates had to be just right, not just tight, but right, you had to fire more than one settling shot, return the gun to battery the same every time, and even manipulate the little trigger lever the same every time.
And if you did not have tight slide to frame fit, it did not mean a thing.

FLG and I once shot a gun with tightly fitted barrel but nothing done to the slide to frame connection. Depending on typical RR alignment, it did not do much. Laying it for each shot individually with a scope sight in V blocks on the top curve of the slide had it shooting as well as a no slop full accuracy job.

FLG had been planning on making up some solid grip plates, milled out of aluminum or micarta and glass bedded to a specific known accurate gun. But we got evicted and that mount was not coming with us. Our Ransom is in storage now.
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  #21  
Old 10-15-2013, 06:54 PM
GilaMonster GilaMonster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penman53 View Post
No offense on you wanting to know how your gun shoots but using the rest for 25 yards is kind of a waste of time.
No offense taken.

For the first time using the RR, 25 yards seemed a good place to start. If you can get it shooting good groups at 25, the results at 50 should be telling, eh?

No offense, but many rifle shooters wanting to zero at 100+ often start at 50...
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  #22  
Old 10-15-2013, 08:31 PM
pcrh pcrh is offline
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You might be interested in this http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236

Ransom rest results
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  #23  
Old 10-15-2013, 08:49 PM
La Grenouille La Grenouille is offline
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Check this out. After seeing this, anything else kinda...well, it's a disappointment. Like buying a Wilson for your first 1911.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=385240
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  #24  
Old 10-15-2013, 09:52 PM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penman53 View Post
Can I ask why you are ransom resting any 1911 at 25 yards? I'm a bullseye shooter and we never waste our time with how a gun shoots at 25 yards.

No offense on you wanting to know how your gun shoots but using the rest for 25 yards is kind of a waste of time.
We recognize and honor your Bullseye skill. You da man.

Ransom Rest at 25 yards is a fair standard for most of the rest of the 1911 industry.
It might not work for you and fellow Bullseye marksmen, but it's a fair standard for the rest of us.

We'll recognize your need to castrate a gnat at 50 yards.
Please recognize that a nice tight 25 yard group
is appropriate for the rest of us.

And I think we kinda outnumber you.
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  #25  
Old 10-16-2013, 07:52 AM
baerhunter baerhunter is online now
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Hey Gilamonster,
It was mentioned once earlier (I believe just once) that if your slide to frame fit is not really good, then a ransom rest isn't going to give you good results. The reason is that the sights go into battery with potentially a different position for each shot. By shooting off of bags by hand, you can at least accomodate that movement and align the sights for each shot. This really does matter.
Best of luck to you.
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