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  #1  
Old 05-30-2013, 09:20 PM
CZEnvy CZEnvy is offline
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Are jacketed SWC'S a poor choice for 1911's?




Good evening. I reload .45 ACP and got a great deal on some jacketed SWC's so I reloaded 100 rounds w/ my typical recipe. I took them to the range w/ my "Block" G21 (I always test reloads in my Glock before shooting them in any of my 1911's) and it had no problem digesting them. I decided to manually cycle a mag through my Springfield RO before reloading another 100 for a range trip...it did not go well. Would not reliably feed or chamber the SWC's. I decided to try 2 other bullet types (a Winchester FMJ & Remington Golden Saber JHP) in factory ammo and had no problem w/ function. Soooo, are SWC's not a good choice for reloading to shoot in unmodified 1911's? Or is it the tighter tolerances of a 1911 that prevent reliable feeding? I could reload another 25-50 and take them to the range to try live fire cycling, but I'm not sure about wasting my time and having to shoot my "Block" just to keep from wasting my reloads. Thinking of selling them and buying more of my traditional FMJ bullets. Anybody have a similar problem or recommendation? Thanks for any feedback.
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  #2  
Old 05-30-2013, 09:24 PM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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Try shorter and longer cartridge lengths (OAL).
That's what we do.
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  #3  
Old 05-30-2013, 09:31 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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"Jacketed SWCs" is frightfully generic, what did you buy?
What OAL and length to the shoulder did you load them to?
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:07 PM
CZEnvy CZEnvy is offline
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Sorry for the limited details in the first post Jim..OAL is 1.245". Not sure what you mean by length to shoulder. I'll try to add a pic for visual reference.
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:13 PM
CZEnvy CZEnvy is offline
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Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1369969960.157779.jpg
Views:	256
Size:	49.8 KB
ID:	100417
My reload is in the middle. The Winchester & Remy referenced earlier are on either side.
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  #6  
Old 05-30-2013, 10:26 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Looks plated. I never did get good feeding out of plated SWCs in guns set up for cast SWCs. As Nick said, all you can do is experiment with OALs.
Or find somebody who likes them.
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  #7  
Old 05-30-2013, 10:33 PM
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Looking at that pic you could probably shorten your OAL a little and try again if you wanted to, some here recommend for the bullet to be seated with the shoulder about a fingernail thickness above the case mouth (think of the "cone" of the projectile as a neck, the shoulder is where the bullet suddenly gets wider and meets the case mouth).

Personally I've never had luck when using SWC design projectiles in any of my pistols, 1911's or USP, I always have feeding problems, when I can get them to feed reliably the accuracy has not been that great and I could never seem to get the clean round holes that SWC bullets are known to produce.

I have switched to JHP's from Nosler and Sierra for my non plinking rounds and could not be happier. YMMV.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:04 PM
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My 200gr SWC looked exactly like yours and they didn't load worth crap.I think i'll just stick to RN.
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  #9  
Old 05-30-2013, 11:19 PM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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I have a gold cup that Hornady 200g JSWC is its best bullet.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:20 PM
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fast eddie fast eddie is offline
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I will buy your SWC plated bullets. I shoot 152's 185's and 200's without a hitch.
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  #11  
Old 05-30-2013, 11:28 PM
c_m_shooter c_m_shooter is offline
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Shorted your OAL until the shoulder is almost flush with case mouth.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:34 PM
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There are many different SWC bullets, and although they are similar, they do require differing lengths from one brand to another for reliable feeding in any one particular gun.

The pictured round looks a bit on the long side. I'd suggest you shorten it to 1.235, and test again.
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZEnvy View Post
Attachment 100417
My reload is in the middle. The Winchester & Remy referenced earlier are on either side.
Seat that puppy a bit deeper. Rule of thumb is there should only be about a thumbnail's thickness of the full diameter shoulder showing above the edge of the case mouth. Be aware that you may need to do some feed ramp and throat work on the pistol to reliably feed that type of bullet profile. (Remember that the 1911 was originally designed to feed FMJ-RN.)
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:57 AM
Griz44 Griz44 is offline
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Yup, deeper is better.
I shoot SWC cast from all of my 1911 pistols, no issues when seated properly.
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  #15  
Old 05-31-2013, 06:14 AM
CT911 CT911 is offline
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in addition to a little shorter try to make sure your crimp is at .468 or .469. Glock chambers are typically on the large side so what works in them may not work in other guns.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:18 AM
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RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
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Doesn't look like a jacketed SWC to me, it look like a Berry's plated bullet. As others have said, you need a shorter OAL, probably about 1.230".

Also, hand cycling is not a reliable test for smooth feeding.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:19 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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the bullet does the work

Maybe it was 1995; I was watching a top-ranked USPSA shooter who normally shot Open competing with a well-worn standard 1911. I noticed he was using a 230g LRN, when EVERYONE else was using the 'hot' set-up, a 200g #68.

So I asked him why.

He said "Reliability is the most important thing; it's gotta go bang".


It became the defining credo of my manufacturing, "First it must go bang"
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:31 AM
Old Grumpy Old Grumpy is offline
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Both of my 1911s function great shooting SWC (185gr and 200gr). They do appear extremely short when compared to other types of bullets. Did you use the plunk test to set your OAL or where did you get your OAL data from?

I agree with the other members that your OAL seems a bit long. Try seating the bullet deeper (use the plunk test to determine how short), reduce your charge to starting weight and work back up. This may seem like a lot of work but one of the things that I enjoy about reloading is the fact you can "tweek" your loads to function in your weapon.

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Old 05-31-2013, 11:10 AM
bigggbbruce bigggbbruce is offline
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Shorten a bit and pull the trigger not hand cycle...
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  #20  
Old 05-31-2013, 11:57 AM
AngelDeville AngelDeville is offline
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You'll go blind if you hand cycle....
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  #21  
Old 05-31-2013, 03:27 PM
CHESAPEAKE CHESAPEAKE is offline
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Try This

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZEnvy View Post
Sorry for the limited details in the first post Jim..OAL is 1.245". Not sure what you mean by length to shoulder. I'll try to add a pic for visual reference.
Load that to 1.230 and report back -
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  #22  
Old 05-31-2013, 03:50 PM
Legion489 Legion489 is offline
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I have absolutely no problem with plated/jacketed SWC bullets in my .45 1911s. I am in the "try shortening them slightly, with the shoulder JUST above the case mouth" group. Usually I just load mine so they just fit in the magazine (shoulder just above the case mouth) and do a thunk test. If good to go, shoot them. Never had a problem.
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  #23  
Old 05-31-2013, 03:59 PM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZEnvy View Post
Good evening. I reload .45 ACP and got a great deal on some jacketed SWC's so I reloaded 100 rounds w/ my typical recipe.

I took them to the range w/ my "Block" G21 (I always test reloads in my Glock before shooting them in any of my 1911's) and it had no problem digesting them.

Please receive this with the helpful spirit intended.
First, let’s gather this up a bit so everybody understands what’s really going on here.

I restructured your post so it was more “readable”
(Without paragraph structure, many of us can’t read correctly all that goo running together)

This issue of “running them through your Glock” before the 1911 is confounding to say the least.

“Every gun is its own gun; every load is its own load” - Gerk

Just because they run “flawlessly” through the Tupperware, means nothing when relating to any other gun, be it you’re 1911 or even another Glock for that matter.
Load for the gun intended “first”
THEN look or load for “economy” in cartridge dimensions for multiple gun use.


I decided to manually cycle a mag through my Springfield RO before reloading another 100 for a range trip...it did not go well.
Would not reliably feed or chamber the SWC's.

As Brother Rod alluded to, “hand cycling” is really inconclusive.
The dynamic forces applied and shooter behavior interactions are night and day.
Under actual firing conditions the cartridges may perform without issue once chambered.


I decided to try 2 other bullet types (a Winchester FMJ & Remington Golden Saber JHP) in factory ammo and had no problem w/ function.

Soooo, are SWC's not a good choice for reloading to shoot in unmodified 1911's?

Not usually….
Most, if not all “modern production” 1911’s are designed to cycle just about every bullet profile on the market, albeit some may require more “tweaking” and or adjustment than others.


Or is it the tighter tolerances of a 1911 that prevent reliable feeding?

It could be…..
Is this a relatively new gun?
Less than 1000 rounds through it?
If so, get some more miles on it with some ball or JHP bullets, and then re-try the SWC’ers.
New SA guns can be very tightly fitted, give the pistol a chance to “work in” a bit if this is the case.

Also, try a few different magazines; a mag change could make all the difference.
Borrow some from a friend and try first, no sense spending the money if this is not the problem.
(I mention this because you’re stated COL is so typical and COL in a photo can be “deceiving”)


I could reload another 25-50 and take them to the range to try live fire cycling, but I'm not sure about wasting my time and having to shoot my "Block" just to keep from wasting my reloads.

Not sure I fully understand the logic here?

Thinking of selling them and buying more of my traditional FMJ bullets. Anybody have a similar problem or recommendation?
Thanks for any feedback.

Answer a few of these questions to yourself and most likely you can get them to “run” in the RO
If not now, in the future.

You mentioned the COL as 1.245”
But you gave us no taper crimp measurement?
While this may not be directly related, it can contribute to cycling issues
Try and keep the diameter at the case mouth below around ~ 0.472” at a minimum.
0.470” is probably more ideal, but you get the picture here.

If you are not taper crimping, still measure this area, if this area is excessive in diameter this can add to your chambering issues.

Much recommendation has been to shorten the COL
The 1.245” COL is not excessive, but as stated above “every load is its own load” fully applies here.
Try as suggested, move to the ~ 1.230” range to see if that brings some improvement.

As you tweak the COL, just try and remember to maintain some level of exposed shoulder above the case mouth rim.

You asked about the measurement regarding measuring from the shoulder to the case rim
This measurement is taken from the datum points where the base of the nose starts and that little flat “plateau” area between the base of the nose and rounded shoulder area as the shoulder “transitions” to the bullet shank or bullet “diameter” section of the bullet.
This is where you take you measurement from to the base of the case rim.

On most of my SWC loading this typically runs around ~ 0.935” or so with a corresponding COL of ~ 1.250”

The reason this is asked is, in this SWC design, once the nose has “assisted” entry into the chamber, past the frame and barrel ramps, it no longer has any impact in the chambering function, it’s just along for the ride now.

Once entering the chamber, the shoulder and how far it extends “above” the case mouth rim is what impacts the ability of the cartridge to fully chamber.
And whether you have issues of engaging the leade section of the barrel.
(Exposed shoulder is too “long” and it engages the leade and or rifling in the barrel)

And or the amount (if any) adjusting this exposed shoulder height has on final accuracy.
(Many find tweaking shoulder height can improve accuracy in the loading)

Generally, you should look to have between ~ 0.020” to 0.040” of exposed shoulder “above” the case mouth rim on most SWC’ers in this caliber.


Good Luck
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  #24  
Old 05-31-2013, 08:37 PM
Centaur 1 Centaur 1 is offline
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I bought my first 1911 about 9 months ago, it's a standard GI RIA. I noticed the same problem with SWC's not feeding when hand cycling the gun. A friend of mine who shoots nothing buy SWC's told me to pull back on the slide really hard so that it slips from your grip and slams the next round into the chamber, simulating what happens when you fire the gun. Sure enough they fed, and they cycled flawlessly at the range when I shot them. The thing that I didn't like was the big gouge on the nose of the bullet from slamming into the feedramp. I bought the Lee 230 grain TC mold and those bullets just glide into the chamber, even when I ease the slide forward.
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Old 05-31-2013, 08:51 PM
Rick McC. Rick McC. is offline
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I agree with all above; your bullets need to be seated a little deeper.

Are they 200gr, or 185gr?

Rick
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