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  #1  
Old 05-22-2013, 03:51 PM
Jgardone Jgardone is offline
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Failure to feed




I am having a failure to feed problem with my 1911. it is a rock island standard GI. The load i am having problems with is 200 grain swc, COAL is 1.25, and 4.7 grains of w231. when the slide slams forward after releasing the slide release, the first shell loads fine, so i dont believe its a feed ramp issue, however after the recoil loads the next shell, the slide stops about 1/8 from full forward, you push the slide forward with your thumb then the pistol is ok to fire, i tried a little title crimp and did not seem to help, almost seems to be that the extractor is running into the back of the case, any help would be appreciated
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:59 AM
FLSlim FLSlim is online now
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1st, welcome.
Without being there, I'd guess it is an issue with your reloads, even if the slide does close on the 1st round. Did you "plunk test" the rounds? The usual culprits are crimp & OAL. Make sure your crimp is very close to 0.47" and only a thumbnail width of the bullet shoulder is exposed above the case (from bottom of rim to top of shoulder should be about 0.93").

Good luck.
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  #3  
Old 05-23-2013, 07:10 AM
mightymo1911 mightymo1911 is offline
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I can't say for sure if course, but when I had that issue it was due to inadequate crimp. Your COAL sounds good, I run mine 1.245". Every gun is a little different with what they like. I would measure the crimp and go from there.
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  #4  
Old 05-23-2013, 07:17 AM
dickttx dickttx is online now
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There was a similar post a week or so ago. Can't remember the forum or poster (or what I had for supper last nite).
I acquired a new Talo 38 Super LW Commander a few months ago and had endless problems like yours. I fiddled with my loads for some time and never could get it to feed properly. I don't believe it ever loaded two rounds in a row. One evening I was completely disgusted with it and was trying to come up with something. The next morning I went out to shoot again and did not have a single problem. I shot it several times with six different mags and never a problem--till a couple of weeks ago when it again quit going into battery.
That is when I read the posting I referred to above. There were several postings on the thread as to OAL, crimp, mags, etc. One poster, however, suggested lubrication of the pistol. Last weekend I took it out, along with a small bottle of CLP. I lubed the barrel/bushing and rails, maybe excessively. I ran 91 rounds in six mags, over a couple of evenings, without a single failure.
I have been wishing I could find that post to think the person who suggested the lubrication.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:42 AM
Alland Alland is offline
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I think that the problem may be that the slide is short stroking with such a reduced load.

I would suggest trying a 12 or 14 pound recoil spring.
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  #6  
Old 05-23-2013, 08:08 AM
spectro2003 spectro2003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alland View Post
I think that the problem may be that the slide is short stroking with such a reduced load.

I would suggest trying a 12 or 14 pound recoil spring.
^^ This
The charge seems low. I run 230gr LRN at 5.5gr win231. I believe the starting load for the 200gr is 5.0grs. Do a couple of test loads and test again.
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  #7  
Old 05-23-2013, 09:09 AM
David Clark David Clark is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgardone View Post
I am having a failure to feed problem with my 1911. it is a rock island standard GI. The load i am having problems with is 200 grain swc, COAL is 1.25, and 4.7 grains of w231. when the slide slams forward after releasing the slide release, the first shell loads fine, so i dont believe its a feed ramp issue, however after the recoil loads the next shell, the slide stops about 1/8 from full forward, you push the slide forward with your thumb then the pistol is ok to fire, i tried a little title crimp and did not seem to help, almost seems to be that the extractor is running into the back of the case, any help would be appreciated
Cartridges either pass chamber plunk test/case gage or not. Then suggest you proceed to other variables, otherwise it's an episode of tail chasing, time and/or money wasted. Match case mouth diameter with a known to feed in your pistol cartridge/case mouth (factory ammunition) diameter.

If feed is still an issue, then proceed to other variables, suggesting anyways.

dc.

Last edited by David Clark; 05-23-2013 at 09:12 AM. Reason: the word if.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:22 AM
NIGHT AL NIGHT AL is online now
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Check your extractor, for too much tension.
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  #9  
Old 05-23-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgardone View Post
I am having a failure to feed problem with my 1911. it is a rock island standard GI. The load i am having problems with is 200 grain swc, COAL is 1.25, and 4.7 grains of w231. when the slide slams forward after releasing the slide release, the first shell loads fine, so i dont believe its a feed ramp issue, however after the recoil loads the next shell, the slide stops about 1/8 from full forward, you push the slide forward with your thumb then the pistol is ok to fire, i tried a little title crimp and did not seem to help, almost seems to be that the extractor is running into the back of the case, any help would be appreciated
If your rounds are passing the plunk test ok, a couple of other things to look at with an RIA are in order. If this is a new gun, I would run at least three hundred rounds of standard ball through it as a break in. It would also be beneficial to have a gunsmith polish up the feed path real good. It may also need to have the barrel ramp throated for better feeding of HP and SWC type ammo.

If you have the stock Armscor mags check that they are locking up all the way up in the mag well. If, after seating a loaded mag, you can push it up a bit higher in the feed path, I guarantee that will cause feeding problems. Another mag issue has to do with the shape of the magazine feed lips. The stock mags let the round pop up early in the feed cycle and it may not be getting up behind the extractor hook as it should. Standard GI profile mags do a better job of controlling when the round is released and will help that problem.

As others have said, you might bump up the charge on those loads some as well. 4.7 gr. is a bit on the light side, especially if the gun is new and not broken in yet.

I know all this because I've got the RIA Tactical, and yours is doing exactly what mine did when new. I replaced the mag catch with one that locks the mags higher in the well, had the barrel and feed ramp throated and polished, and replaced the mags with 7 round GI type mags. It percolates right along now. This is all typical stuff with the Rock Island.
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Last edited by Rifter; 05-23-2013 at 10:23 AM.
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  #10  
Old 05-23-2013, 10:48 AM
gamma72 gamma72 is offline
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What mags are you using?

I run a Citadel in 45ACP that had serious feed problems with the factory mags and I had 6 of them since they are so cheap. I did everything that I could with my reloads to fix the problem with minimal success. SWC were extremely problematic and RN was more reliable but still had feed problems on occassion.

The only thing that fixed it for me was to run Wilson Combat mags. I exclusively use Wilsons on both of my 1911's and I have not had any problems since. I shoot IDPA with my Citadel and have not had any problems during any course of fire.
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Last edited by gamma72; 05-23-2013 at 10:52 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #11  
Old 05-23-2013, 10:51 AM
gamma72 gamma72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
I know all this because I've got the RIA Tactical, and yours is doing exactly what mine did when new. I replaced the mag catch with one that locks the mags higher in the well, had the barrel and feed ramp throated and polished, and replaced the mags with 7 round GI type mags. It percolates right along now. This is all typical stuff with the Rock Island.
I have also replaced the mag catch on my Citadel as recommended by this forum and contacted RIA and they sent me the part for free! However, this did not totally eliminate the feeding problem and still ended up with Wilson mags.
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  #12  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:12 AM
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I think Alland has it right, since the first round feeds fine, and subsequent rounds do not. If you like the performance of that load, then a recoil spring change may be in order. If you wish to stay with the stock spring, then increase the powder charge, and test again.

If you still have issues after a powder charge increase, then I'd suggest you shorten your OAL to 1.235 and test again. Several of the RIA guns I have loaded for seem to prefer this shorter length, over the typical 1.250 length.
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  #13  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:30 AM
Jgardone Jgardone is offline
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thanks for all the quick responses, i will try a little heavier charge and try a few rounds, the gun itself is over a year old and has had plenty of ammo through it, the loads themselves were my best guess since im new to reloading
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  #14  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:56 AM
edfardos edfardos is offline
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I went through this with my RIA too. They replaced the recoil spring (felt much stiffer), tuned the extractor (but i don't think it was the problem). I also switched from AA#5 to W231 because pushing the out-of-battery-slide forward met with gritty resistance (unburned powder in the chamber). RIA chambers are tight. A crimp of .471 is probably too big. Shoot for .4685 to .470.

Are you sure the extractor is in the groove of the brass? just a light push with the thumb closes the slide? I had push-feed problems with my RIA, apparently because I never cleaned the oily gunk that developed on the mag lips (I over oiled the gun too). The last bullet would often fly out of the mag under recoil. This caused a secondary symptom of fail-to-eject on the last round since the push-feeds seriously de-tensioned the extractor.

My other RIA issue was an uncommanded slide-stop mid mag. RIA tried to fix this with a stiffer plunger spring, to no avail. An after market Fusion Firearms slide stop (with detent groove) fixed this once and for all.


my experience,
--edfardos

Last edited by edfardos; 05-23-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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  #15  
Old 05-23-2013, 12:26 PM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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No disrespect to Jgardone or any other new reloader, I consider all reloaders friends and brothers.
Sometimes new reloaders make choices and then have a little difficulty.
No big deal, we'll try to help. Sometimes that help is offering a little education
on the selected components. I hope this helps.


The lead semi-wadcutter is an odd bullet. It was never intended to be a 'beginners bullet'.
It was devised as a specialized target bullet for slow fire accuracy match shooting.
They even developed specific magazine lips and mag followers for it,
and special target loads (very accurate loads!) have been developed
that differ from typical 200 grain lead bullet loads for the 45acp.
It's not a typical critter, it's a very specialized one.

It surely can run in (nearly) every 1911. Millions are loaded and shot every year.
But it's not a conventional bullet. Being brand new at reloading and going straight to
nearly the most difficult bullet to load and shoot successfully may be an unfortunate choice.
Some guns (and reloaders) get success right from the beginning.
Others struggle and never really get it to run. Even some experienced
reloaders have trouble with SWC in guns known to run perfectly well.
It might be a perfect choice, it might be a very unfortunate choice for others.

4.7 grains W231/HP38 with 200 grain semiwadcutter is mid-range load.
It isn't too soft by any means, but soft vs heavy is also relative to each gun.
Depending upon the springs (recoil and main), firing pin stop, tightness of the gun,
and the weight of the slide (you didn't even think of that, did you?) one gun's
lighter load may be another gun's hefty load.

The first effort at solution is to verify all dimensions of the cartridge and the gun itself.
Experiment with different cartridge lengths, powder charges, crimp diameters,
sizing die adjustments, recoil springs, lubricants, magazines, grip (meaning
the way you hold the pistol, not the grip panels you exchange by unscrewing
the grip screws). Seek the combination that works for you and your gun.

Some solutions are just bandaids to the real issue. Finding the real issue
and resolving it may take much more time, effort, patience, and sometimes luck.


Or, buy round nose 230 grain jacketed bullets. Load and shoot 500 of them.
Or maybe 1000. Or maybe 5000. When you get really good at this reloading thing,
then try different bullet styles, materials and weights.
The 230 grain round nose fmj bullet is by far, and I mean FAR, the easiest
to load and shoot in the 45acp 1911 pistol. By FAAARRRRRR.

In these tough times, it's hard to find 230grain fmj.
Even 230 grain round nose lead is easier to load & shoot than SWC.
But it may be necessary to just keep working with what you got
until you succeed.

I think I would carefully increase the charge by 2/10, then another 2/10,
the another 2/10 grain of powder to see if that helps overcome the problem.
If those loads cycle the gun, are easy to shoot, and accurate then
you have your solution. If they cycle the gun but aren't as accurate
then try a softer recoil spring and go back down to 4.7 grains or so.



Just to repeat, so I save a lot of you from posting otherwise,
the 200 grain lead semiwadcutter can run perfectly well in most 1911 pistols.
It isn't impossible. But it's not a slam dunk guarantee either.
It's an odd bullet. Keep that in mind.

And if all else fails, go back to your reloading manuals and read every chapter
from beginning to end. Reinforce your knowledge. Many of these problems
are resolved in the head, not the gun.

Best of luck.

Last edited by Nick A; 05-23-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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  #16  
Old 05-23-2013, 02:17 PM
RealGun RealGun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick A View Post
<>

The lead semi-wadcutter is an odd bullet. It was never intended to be a 'beginners bullet'.
<>
Seems to me that the SWC is the one and only bullet many use, regardless. You didn't say specifically why the SWC presents a challenge to the less experienced.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:46 PM
Cappi Cappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgardone View Post
i will try a little heavier charge and try a few rounds
no need for a heavier charge ..that's not you problem .
the OAl you mentioned doesn't mean a thing either , because there are so many different styles of LSWC.

do you know what the "plunk test" is?
That's simply removing the barrel from the pistol and dropping a loaded rnd in.
the case rim should be flush or a thousandth or 3 below the barrel hood.
Drop in a factory rnd and you'll see what I mean.

start there



if they pass the plunk test, here's your problem





Quote:
, the gun itself is over a year old and has had plenty of ammo through it
according to my Magic 8 Ball, you simply need a new 16 pnd recoil spring is all.
RIA springs are junk to start with..if you have more than 1000 rnds thru the pistol, you need a new spring anyway

Buy a new Wolfe spring
if your pistol is a 5" barrel, you need pt # 41916



http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%...D1/mID1/dID1#3


..L.T.A.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:31 PM
gringosalsero gringosalsero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickttx View Post
There was a similar post a week or so ago.
Was this the post:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=417503
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:06 PM
MR.452 MR.452 is offline
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I went through the same thing with my Rock and tried all kids of tricks to get it to feed right.Finally got it to feed Most Of the time.Oddly enough they wont feed in my Glock either so I don't feel too bad.Anyway listen to what others advised you to do as they about covered any thing you need to know.Sound advice.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamma72 View Post
What mags are you using?

I run a Citadel in 45ACP that had serious feed problems with the factory mags and I had 6 of them since they are so cheap. I did everything that I could with my reloads to fix the problem with minimal success. SWC were extremely problematic and RN was more reliable but still had feed problems on occassion.

The only thing that fixed it for me was to run Wilson Combat mags. I exclusively use Wilsons on both of my 1911's and I have not had any problems since. I shoot IDPA with my Citadel and have not had any problems during any course of fire.
I'm using Checkmate 7-rd GI mags, with the original controlled release feed lips.
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  #21  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:20 PM
David Clark David Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by RealGun View Post
Seems to me that the SWC is the one and only bullet many use, regardless. You didn't say specifically why the SWC presents a challenge to the less experienced.
I can't answer for Nick but I can share why semi-wadcutters can be a challenge to feed in one word, ogive.

Ogive is the curve coming off the straight wall bearing surface, semi-wadcutters step off straight wall. Seating depth, or how high ogive can be set is determined by magazine feed lip release points and position of magazine in feed well. How well cartridge nose is controlled is affected by ogive and truncated cone height.

A common kitchen table gunsmith approach is to attack/polish feed ramp and chamber throat. I liken the approach to polishing teeth for hemorrhoid issues. It takes more than reloading experience to tune feed issues in a TRUE TO SPEC, GI ISSUE 1911. I've worked on a few Rock Islands, tuned performance and shined appearance up a bit.

GI feed lip configured magazines were not designed for swc feed, cheap hybrids can have issues too even with earlier release points. SWC feed performance can sometimes be a simple change in ogive height, case mouth diameter and/or magazine change. I like the two step approach, tuned cartridges and a change to Wilson ETM or 47d magazines. Polished, tuned and tensioned extractors increase performance as well, but the big picture usually goes beyond just one change in component geometry.

Now that I've explained the big picture of semi-wadcutter feed dynamics, you new to reloading lswc reloaders should be crystal clear on the issues, right ?

dc.

Last edited by David Clark; 05-23-2013 at 06:22 PM.
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  #22  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:38 PM
RealGun RealGun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Clark View Post
I can't answer for Nick but I can share why semi-wadcutters can be a challenge to feed in one word, ogive.

Ogive is the curve coming off the straight wall bearing surface, semi-wadcutters step off straight wall. Seating depth, or how high ogive can be set is determined by magazine feed lip release points and position of magazine in feed well. How well cartridge nose is controlled is affected by ogive and truncated cone height.

A common kitchen table gunsmith approach is to attack/polish feed ramp and chamber throat. I liken the approach to polishing teeth for hemorrhoid issues. It takes more than reloading experience to tune feed issues in a TRUE TO SPEC, GI ISSUE 1911. I've worked on a few Rock Islands, tuned performance and shined appearance up a bit.

GI feed lip configured magazines were not designed for swc feed, cheap hybrids can have issues too even with earlier release points. SWC feed performance can sometimes be a simple change in ogive height, case mouth diameter and/or magazine change. I like the two step approach, tuned cartridges and a change to Wilson ETM or 47d magazines. Polished, tuned and tensioned extractors increase performance as well, but the big picture usually goes beyond just one change in component geometry.

Now that I've explained the big picture of semi-wadcutter feed dynamics, you new to reloading lswc reloaders should be crystal clear on the issues, right ?

dc.
That begs the question why (or how) commercial ammo is offered in LSWC and seems to satisfy people enough to support the product offerings. It's not customized but rather made to some standard.

Then there is the issue of commercially offered SWC bullets, not some infinitely variable ogive dimensions.

You had a lot to say about the gun but as far as reloading ammo goes you only mentioned insertion depth, implying OAL as well. Does a SWC not have a cannelure that has some control over where the case is crimped?
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  #23  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:55 PM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealGun View Post
Does a SWC not have a cannelure that has some control over where the case is crimped?
My friend, I guess you are less knowledgeable about reloading, and may be asking questions out of genuine curiosity. The quoted question is kinda, well, odd. Lead semiwadcutter for 45acp has no cannelure and never had one, in part because 'cannelure' is a term used for jacketed bullets. Lead bullets are swaged or cast with a 'crimping groove'. 45acp bullets have neither because it is a taper crimped cartridge. It is not roll crimped into a crimping groove like a revolver cartridge. For 45acp and other semiauto straight-wall pistol cartridges, a solid bearing surface is encountered on a cast lead bullet to give the handloader a little room to adjust seating depth as needed. That is the opposite of controlling where the case is crimped.

Rather than more of my time, I really encourage you to get books about reloading and components. There is much to be learned, beyond the scope of a friendly chat forum. Also, you must be careful about a forum like this. Some of us are liars and never tell the truth. Some of us always tell the truth. And many more know some of the truth, but make mistakes expressing it sometimes. You just don't know who is who.

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  #24  
Old 05-23-2013, 07:02 PM
David Clark David Clark is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealGun View Post
That begs the question why (or how) commercial ammo is offered in LSWC and seems to satisfy people enough to support the product offerings. It's not customized but rather made to some standard.

Then there is the issue of commercially offered SWC bullets, not some infinitely variable ogive dimensions.

You had a lot to say about the gun but as far as reloading ammo goes you only mentioned insertion depth, implying OAL as well. Does a SWC not have a cannelure that has some control over where the case is crimped?
Federal Gold Medal Match, 185 grain jacketed semi-wadcutter is the benchmark for accuracy and feed performance. Take a look at Federal's curvature coming off straight walled bearing surface, then look at a Missouri Bullet Company 185 lbnswc and 200 grain MBC lswc. There is no standard shape to swc shape and differences in cartridge geometry have to be set according to tolerences within each 1911 feed channel. Teaching 1911 cartidge geometry requires a pretty good understanding of 1911 controlled feed before understanding the how and why of seating height, ogive height, OAL and loaded case mouth diameter. Commercial manufacturing takes all these things into consideration before gunpowder. If cartridge can't feed it won't fire, the real challenge to cartridge craft is building an accurate, feedable cartridge that performs from any make pistol. That's the line between reloading and cartridge building.

dc.

Last edited by David Clark; 05-23-2013 at 08:33 PM. Reason: the fellar who invented auto edit deserves a good kick in the pants..
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  #25  
Old 05-23-2013, 10:40 PM
Jba999 Jba999 is offline
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It might be the brand of bullet. I have shot several thousand lswc 200 grain using 5.0 grains of w231 without a FTF.I then tried Missouri bullets and that is where I started to get FTF on a regular basis. The gun would not go into battery after shooting these for a while.
I discovered severe leading in the barrel especially at the throat. I cleaned the barrel and went back to the bullets lswc for SNS casting-flawless. I recently tried my Missouri bullets and after 40 rounds I could not get the gun to go into battery.i have expressed my dissatisfaction with Missouri bullets and will not use them again. I think that they are too soft and their quality control is being compromised due to massive demand.
My reload recipe is identical for both Missouri and SNS casting bullets.
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