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  #1  
Old 04-28-2013, 08:56 AM
FredS FredS is offline
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Bullseye Performance




I recently signed up to this forum. A little over a year ago started to get into shooting. Hadn't shot in decades since the military. I shoot primarily 1911's or HK USP's as the USP works best for me. Right now I am shooting paper and have thought about entering some matches at the gun range I joined as a few people suggested it to me. As I can see it there are two basic competitions, with variations thereof, either bullseye or USPSA / IDPA. I must admit I don't know the difference between the two but I think you have to have a holster, which I don't have.

In terms of accuracy, and here I refer to target shooting, what is considered good accuracy for this type of shooting? On a good day I can get 1" groups at 10 yds, 2" groups at 15 yds and 2-4" groups at 25 yds. I read that some matches are out to 50 yds so I started practicing at that distance. After about a dozen sessions I can now get to 4 - 6" groups at 50 yds fairly consistently.

Reading some of the forums and others sites I saw one reference to bullseye shooters placing 20 straight shots in a 1 inch circle at 50 yards being the benchmark. I was astonished when I read that. If that is the case, at 61 years of age, I don't see myself getting to that level. And if that is the case I will relegate my shooting experiences to target shooting competition between my buddies versus any formal competition.

For those of you who have done this what is considered good accuracy for shooting in these types of events? Thanks.
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:30 AM
hi-powered hi-powered is offline
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20 in a 1" at 50 yds is a very very good bullseye shooter. Based on your description you would do well at the clubs I've shot at...
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  #3  
Old 04-28-2013, 09:54 AM
old cop old cop is offline
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If your club has a bullseye match just go watch. They are all shot a 25 and 50 yd. but it is all shot with one hand... that's the hard part.
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  #4  
Old 04-28-2013, 10:06 AM
rrabullseye rrabullseye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredS View Post
I recently signed up to this forum. A little over a year ago started to get into shooting. Hadn't shot in decades since the military. I shoot primarily 1911's or HK USP's as the USP works best for me. Right now I am shooting paper and have thought about entering some matches at the gun range I joined as a few people suggested it to me. As I can see it there are two basic competitions, with variations thereof, either bullseye or USPSA / IDPA. I must admit I don't know the difference between the two but I think you have to have a holster, which I don't have.

In terms of accuracy, and here I refer to target shooting, what is considered good accuracy for this type of shooting? On a good day I can get 1" groups at 10 yds, 2" groups at 15 yds and 2-4" groups at 25 yds. I read that some matches are out to 50 yds so I started practicing at that distance. After about a dozen sessions I can now get to 4 - 6" groups at 50 yds fairly consistently.

Reading some of the forums and others sites I saw one reference to bullseye shooters placing 20 straight shots in a 1 inch circle at 50 yards being the benchmark. I was astonished when I read that. If that is the case, at 61 years of age, I don't see myself getting to that level. And if that is the case I will relegate my shooting experiences to target shooting competition between my buddies versus any formal competition.

For those of you who have done this what is considered good accuracy for shooting in these types of events? Thanks.
If you can shoot 4 - 6 inch groups one handed at 50 yds, Bullseye is going to be your game. Having shot in Phoenix with 2 National Bullseye champions, I don't know about 20 straight shots into 1 inch at 50 yds offhand. Maybe from a ransom rest with a Keefer, Marvel, or Chambers built gun. Have seen plenty of 100s at 50 yds though. The 10 ring is 3.3 inches. Not saying its not possible but have never seen it. The benchmark for mechanical accuracy for a .45 is 1.5 inches from a rest at 50 yds, but I think that will be eclipsed in the near future. The 9mm guns that David Sams and a few others build are already shooting 1 inch groups at 50yds from a rest.

Last edited by rrabullseye; 04-28-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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  #5  
Old 04-28-2013, 10:08 AM
FredS FredS is offline
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I did not realize it was with one hand. My shooting is two handed, thumbs forward. I sometimes shoot one handed (either right or left) at ten yards and less simply as practice in the event that I may ever have to in a defensive situation. One hand shooting at 25 to 50 yards - not for this kid. I will try to go watch a match one day. Thanks for input.
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2013, 10:32 AM
catboat catboat is offline
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http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

Read the above link as many times as you can. It's the Encyclopedia of bullseye shooting. Excellent info, training methods, loading, etc. Read the associated links on the right side too.


Tony's Bullseye blog is also an excellent source of information.
http://www.tonybrong.blogspot.com/

Get a decent 22 LR pistol (ha, ha and some ammo if you can find it), such as a Ruger mark II or III with an updated sear (by Volquartsen, Clark), so you have a good trigger. 22 LR is cheaper to shoot, and practice with, than a .45 acp (or used to be, before the ammo dry up).

Get a decent .177 single shot pellet pistol, and practice with that at 10 meters. It will really help with trigger control and sight alignment. Buy good pellets (match grade).

Enjoy the journey. It can be frustrating, but the true reward is recording your advancement. You don't need $2000 pistols to be very competitive. Read, watch, ask and keep learning. KEEP THINGS SIMPLE. Join a pistol / gun club that has a bullseye pistol program, and shoot as much as you can.

Welcome to the bullseye shooters club.
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2013, 02:31 PM
wv109323 wv109323 is offline
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The Target in Bullseye has a 3.85" diameter 10 ring. The ten ring size is the same at 25 and 50 yards. Fifty yard targets are shot 10 rounds in 10 minutes.(Slow Fire) The 25 yard targets are shot 5 rounds in 20 seconds/ 2 strings per target. That is Timed Fire. Rapid Fire is also same target as Timed but the time is 10 seconds per string.
With ten rounds fired on each target you have a possible score of 100. (10 times 10)
The bunk about 20 shots in a 1" circle at fifty yards is unheard of accuracy. You could probably count all the shooters that have fired a score of 200 at fifty yards on one hand. That is with a 3.85" 10 ring.
A 4" target a 25 yards will translate into a score of 95-100. A 6" group at fifty will be 85 +. I am talking one hand unsupported firing. Your scores would be very respectable in Bullseye.
Bullseye shooting is 50 and 25 yards on paper targets. There are three calibers .22 RF, Centerfire( any straight cased pistol caliber), and .45 ACP. Matches are always 30 rounds ( called the National Match Course) ,60 rounds, or 90 Rounds. With 90 rounds there is a NMC within the 90 rounds. Local matches usual consists of a .22 match and a Centerfire match. ( The .45 ACP is used as a Centerfire)
USDP and ISPDA are courses of fire that are shot on targets at various ranges. They have an A,B,C,D scoring section. Sequence and number of rounds can vary largely. There are usually multiple firing points with or without changing magazines. Your score is based on accuracy and time it takes to fire the rounds. The least time and most accuracy wins.
Matches can use pistols, rifles and shotguns.
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2013, 06:06 PM
superdude superdude is online now
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USPSA (IPSC) and IDPA are very different from Bullseye matches. Links to their organizations are listed below.

USPSA and IDPA emphasize speed or combat or practical shooting skills as if it was a self-defense type scenario. The "bullseyes" are larger as are the targets in general and the time you take to complete a course of fire is part of your score. There are typically multiple targets at varying distances and under different challenging circumstances. It's a hoot!

You would need a holster, and mag pouches and 4-5 mags. A single course of fire can run up to 32 rounds (i think), though most are less.

Either of your guns would be fine, but might put you in different categories. Try to watch a match to see what they're like.

IDPA has somewhat more restrictive rules and regulations than USPSA.

http://www.uspsa.org/

http://www.idpa.com/
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2013, 06:39 PM
FredS FredS is offline
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Input from everyone appreciated. i would like USPSA more than bullseye since I am much a much better shot with two hands than with one. Cheers.
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  #10  
Old 04-29-2013, 06:04 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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If I decided I needed a certain skill level to compete at USPSA matches I would still be watching from the sidelines.

The REAL skill demanded is safety.

I most highly recommend the OP attend his/her local USPSA match (there WILL be at least one ''local"), watch, ask, and join in.
It is riotous good fun, and one's skills WILL be advanced.
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:45 AM
paw080 paw080 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredS View Post
Input from everyone appreciated. i would like USPSA more than bullseye since I am much a much better shot with two hands than with one. Cheers.
Hi Fred, please do not discount/underestimate your shooting potential.

Bullseye shooting for the greatest part is psychological. You really have the basics

down; that is sight alignment and trigger squeeze(straight back while holding the sights in alignment).

These two contingencies to accurate shooting hold true, whether shooting with

one hand or two. There are many online sources describing training for Bullseye shooting.

I'm saying you can learn to shoot one handed much easier than you currently

think you can. I'm gonna give you a link to a solid trustworthy Bullseye forum;

you'll learn a lot there: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/

Best of Luck;

Tony
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2013, 08:17 AM
Yiogo Yiogo is offline
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I fell in love with Bullseye shooting. I've been shooting a Mark 111. I've been tinking about using my 1911. Those that do reload reduced power loads and 185 grain bullets. I don't reload.

I started shooting in January but had been shooting one handed for a few years as a preparation. It's fun. I'll never be the best shooter in the club but at 64 I'm having a great time. Yiogo
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:30 AM
2MoreChains 2MoreChains is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredS View Post
Input from everyone appreciated. i would like USPSA more than bullseye since I am much a much better shot with two hands than with one. Cheers.
There is also some one-handed shooting in USPSA... sometimes much to people's detriment! Comes down to practice, practice, practice in which ever sport you end up picking up.

I say try as many different venues as you can. They all compliment one another. I think it is safe to say USPSA is more dynamic than Bullseye. There is shooting on the move, shooting around and thru barricades, some running, reloads on the clock, strategizing... and speed. Most USPSA stages are shot at a pretty high rate of speed compared to Bullseye. You still need to be accurate, but fortunately the targets are bigger.
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2013, 09:38 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Bullseye shooting vs. action shooting

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Reading some of the forums and others sites I saw one reference to bullseye shooters placing 20 straight shots in a 1 inch circle at 50 yards being the benchmark.
Whoever posted this on a forum is full of baloney.....no one has ever shot 20 consecutive shots in a one inch circle at 50 yds. in Bullseye shooting.... In fact, a Dist. Master Army shooter named Bonnie Harmon holds the National 50 yd. slow fire record of a perfect 200 score (at 50 yds.) with a .45. He is the only man to have fired a perfect 200, and he did this in 1982, so his record has remained intact for 30+ years. To shoot a 200 score at 50 yds, the shooter must keep all shots within or touching the 10 ring which is slightly over 3 inches in diameter.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:05 PM
jmchaney jmchaney is offline
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Originally Posted by richpetrone View Post
Whoever posted this on a forum is full of baloney.....no one has ever shot 20 consecutive shots in a one inch circle at 50 yds. in Bullseye shooting.... In fact, a Dist. Master Army shooter named Bonnie Harmon holds the National 50 yd. slow fire record of a perfect 200 score (at 50 yds.) with a .45. He is the only man to have fired a perfect 200, and he did this in 1982, so his record has remained intact for 30+ years. To shoot a 200 score at 50 yds, the shooter must keep all shots within or touching the 10 ring which is slightly over 3 inches in diameter.
It is not the benchmark at 25yd either. I have been carrying a High Master card for more than 20 years, and the 25 yard targets with all 10 shots in the 1 3/4" X ring have been few and far between. In fact, there has been exactly one with the .45 and two or three with the .22.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:43 PM
FredS FredS is offline
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Originally Posted by jmchaney View Post
It is not the benchmark at 25yd either. I have been carrying a High Master card for more than 20 years, and the 25 yard targets with all 10 shots in the 1 3/4" X ring have been few and far between. In fact, there has been exactly one with the .45 and two or three with the .22.
I was very skeptical when I read that as well. I was at the range on Tuesday and was shooting out to 50 yds. I haven't been shooting long and just started to shoot at 50 yds a few weeks ago. A couple of times I was able to get 4 to 6" groupings. However, this was two handed, not one handed. The guy next to me was shooting one handed (.22). I remarked that I had read that some people can shoot a 1911 50 yds into a one inch circle 10 to 20 times in a row - one handed. I told him I thought that was total b.s. since a ransom rest can't even do that. He said it was doable and that he could get close to it. I offered to let him shoot my gun but he said his arm was tired.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:53 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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50 yd. rimfire shooter at the range

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He said it was doable and that he could get close to it.
Obviously this shooter is a "legend in his own mind!" Funny how these guys back down when you ask them to show you how they do it!
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:53 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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Actually, there ARE guns that can deliver a 50yd group into an inch (or less) from the Ransom.
They, too, are rare.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:13 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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50 yd. groups

I have never heard of nor seen a .45 that can shoot 20 consecutive shots into a one inch group at 50 yds, so if there was ever one built that could accomplish this rare feat, I have never heard of it! I'm sure Jerry Keefer could add more info on this!

Shooting a 5 shot group of 1.5 inches is very rare in itself, but to shoot 20 consecutive shots to a one inch group sounds unrealistic with the tolerances needed to allow a 1911 to function properly.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:24 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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Oh, the 20-shot group.
Never mind
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:42 AM
Jerry Keefer Jerry Keefer is offline
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I did not enter this discussion, because it was initially centered on human performance. As you see, some shooters are like fishermen..." Really !! It was this big..!! Most readers, probably are unaware of poster JMChaney, but I assure you, he knows of what he speaks in bullseye circles.. Equipment performance is a completely different issue.
Most of the military teams, and a number of high end bullseye builders have and use barrel testers.. Barrel testers are a robust device that receives the barrel and secures it in a solid, very rigid, immobile state. The tester is mounted to a massive steel/concrete structure. This allows for a very precise evaluation of the performance a particular barrel is capable of. It is rare, very, very rare, as in almost impossible, to find a .45 barrel that will shoot into an inch or less group. 9mm is a different animal. Contrary to popular myth, all barrels are not created equal.. Generally, when installed in the 1911 frame/slide, by a skilled smith, the group will expand by 1/4 inch + . 1-1/2 inch guns do exist, but not in the numbers commonly believed..and, not all ammo is capable of one inch groups..I have seen several 45 barrels that shot into groups slightly less that 3/4 inch, but those barrels where custom made from Douglas match rifle blanks. Those barrels where 14 twist, with a completely different land to groove ratio.
Jerry
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:43 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Size of the 10 ring on NRA B-6 & B-8 targets

Quote:
The Target in Bullseye has a 3.85" diameter 10 ring.
This is incorrect and may have been a typo...... the actual 10 ring diameter on a fully approved and legal NRA Conventional Outdoor Pistol targets (B-6 & B-8) used in 2700 matches is exactly 3.36" which is about 1/2 inch smaller than the incorrectly quoted diameter. This can be verified with the enclosed link......http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/rings.html

Last edited by richpetrone; 05-03-2013 at 08:50 AM.
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  #23  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:07 PM
rrabullseye rrabullseye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Keefer View Post
I did not enter this discussion, because it was initially centered on human performance. As you see, some shooters are like fishermen..." Really !! It was this big..!! Most readers, probably are unaware of poster JMChaney, but I assure you, he knows of what he speaks in bullseye circles.. Equipment performance is a completely different issue.
Most of the military teams, and a number of high end bullseye builders have and use barrel testers.. Barrel testers are a robust device that receives the barrel and secures it in a solid, very rigid, immobile state. The tester is mounted to a massive steel/concrete structure. This allows for a very precise evaluation of the performance a particular barrel is capable of. It is rare, very, very rare, as in almost impossible, to find a .45 barrel that will shoot into an inch or less group. 9mm is a different animal. Contrary to popular myth, all barrels are not created equal.. Generally, when installed in the 1911 frame/slide, by a skilled smith, the group will expand by 1/4 inch + . 1-1/2 inch guns do exist, but not in the numbers commonly believed..and, not all ammo is capable of one inch groups..I have seen several 45 barrels that shot into groups slightly less that 3/4 inch, but those barrels where custom made from Douglas match rifle blanks. Those barrels where 14 twist, with a completely different land to groove ratio.
Jerry

I've fondled the gun you rebuilt for Steve Reiter. I have seen him shoot a 100 point slowfire wit it. I forgot how many Xs. Zero loaded ammo.
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  #24  
Old 05-03-2013, 08:39 PM
Jerry Keefer Jerry Keefer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrabullseye View Post
I've fondled the gun you rebuilt for Steve Reiter. I have seen him shoot a 100 point slowfire wit it. I forgot how many Xs. Zero loaded ammo.
Yes, Steve does me proud... I think he has every record in senior class except two.. I have lost count of the records he has set with that gun.. Zero is what I used in the Douglas test barrel that went under 3/4 inch from the barrel tester. The techs at Zero made some design changes in the Nosler style bullet and it really shoots well.
Jerry
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2013, 03:42 PM
Joe C Joe C is offline
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If I could find a shooter that could shoot 20 shots one handed into a 1" group I'd be beside myself! I've built a couple of .45's that will shoot 1" or slightly less for 10 shots out of my Ransom Rest. They are RARE. On average I'm getting 1.35" or a tad better and I use either ASYM or my own hand loads when testing .45's. With the 9mm and .38super now, that is a different story as those guns have shown, with the proper loads, to shoot under 1" consistently. But still, I have not found anyone that can capitalize on that potential by shooting one handed.
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