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  #1  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:59 AM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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.45 acp reloading problems




Hello, I'm new so go easy.

Today I tried to load up some .45 acp, I'm using the Speer #14 manual.

I trimmed the cases, did a minimal flare, and ran into issues doing the seating/taper crimping.

I am using Power Pistol, and bulk plated 230grn round nose bullets that I picked up locally, no brand name on them, but the guys at the shop told me to use the START data for FMJ in the Speer manual.

The issue I am having is that the profile of the bullets I have, are not the same as the Speer bullets, so when it comes to the "plunk test" (removed the barrels off my .45's and dropped them into the chamber VS the factory rounds), I couldn't even get close with the Case Overall Length listed in the Speer manual.

What I did find is that I could only get my reload to fall in like the factory round when I reached a COL of 1.2. Well I'm not comfortable loading a case with Power Pistol, and a .06 reduced COL.

So at this point I'm not sure what to do, I guess I could lower the powder charge, but I'm not sure where to start.

Is there something I could be doing wrong? I'm having to push the bullet way into the case so the nose doesn't hit the rifling..

Thank you in advance.
  #2  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:01 AM
erikk erikk is offline
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I have been reloading for many many years but just recently started doing 45 ACP. I have found that a LEE Bulge Buster die set up in a SS press has greatly reduced my plunk test results failures using range pick up brass. Also IMHO trimming 45 ACP is a waste of time
  #3  
Old 01-19-2013, 04:14 AM
Steve4102 Steve4102 is offline
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Quote:
I trimmed the cases, did a minimal flare, and ran into issues doing the seating/taper crimping.
You trimmed your 45 acp brass?

Did you FL size them?
Did you measure your crimp? It should measure about .470
Are you seating and crimping in one step?

What pistol are you loading for?

OAL is bullet and firearm specific, not manual specific. You handloads must first, fit-feed-fire. If they do not, then there is no need to worry about pressure.
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  #4  
Old 01-19-2013, 04:30 AM
tmattimore tmattimore is online now
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I think you need to start over. I would look at data for a 230 gr lead bullet before fmj it is a lead bullet with a very thin copper plate have you measured your bullet? is it .451 or .452? measure your case after seating/crimping. .469 to .470 will chamber in most .45's quite well. Have you slugged the barrel? OAL also has a lot to do with bullet shape, chamber size etc.
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  #5  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:37 AM
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RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
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Eleanor08, welcome to the Forum and to our Reloading Section. We always go easy on new people, it's the experienced reloaders that we hassle from time to time.

Your problem is not an unusual one, and I'm sure we'll be able to help you solve it. The more specific information you give us, the quicker we'll be able to help.

For example:
What charge weight of PP are you using? How are you measuring that charge wt.?

What press and dies are you using.

What result do you get with the "plunk test" when using a COL=1.260"?

Did you reduce your COL directly from 1.260 to 1.200? Or did you do it in increments, checking the "plunk" as you went?

We're assuming that you are seating and crimping using the same die in the same operation. Many beginners do. Most experienced reloaders use separate dies for seating and crimping.

What is your crimp dimension? It should be in the neighborhood of .470".

What headstamp brass are you using? Why did you trim it?

Give us some more info and we can help.
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Last edited by RetiredRod; 01-19-2013 at 07:40 AM.
  #6  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:13 AM
Horoscope Fish Horoscope Fish is offline
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Could you post a picture of the bullet you're using? I think that might be the single most helpful thing you could do.

I ask for a picture because I'm wondering if you're not loading round-nose flat-point bullets or something like that. Since they're not a branded bullet we can refer to by "make and model", seeing the profile of the bullet you're working with would help a great deal. Slight differences in bullet profile can make for very different seating depths and overall lengths in your finished rounds.
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Last edited by Horoscope Fish; 01-19-2013 at 08:16 AM.
  #7  
Old 01-19-2013, 09:41 AM
Old Grumpy Old Grumpy is offline
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Fish and Rod made some great points. While it is very common for bullets of the same weight and design to have slightly different profiles (thus different OALs) the charge weight vs OAL is a key variable.

The more (and detailed) information you can give us will help pin point the problem. We're here to help.

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  #8  
Old 01-19-2013, 10:31 AM
Capt. Methane Capt. Methane is offline
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Greetings Eleanor08, welcome aboard!

You've gotten some good responses so far from some guys who deserve respect and you haven't done anything that can't be undone or worked around-you know, no split barrel, cracked slide or frame or blown out magazine-you've stopped at the plunk test with no damage done (excellent so far actually-you're doing well) stay calm and we'll work through this.

I'm going a little too long winded here and I apologize...really The Gerk is much better at this than I am so bear with me and hope he steps in to help you later on!

We've got people from all kinds of backgrounds with all kinds of references and being a freight dog I'm on the road and away from my hard copies-and you should trust paper published information over internet sources...and while I can't lay hands on my antique Sierra manual I can look for a few things to help.

http://www.handgunforum.net/handload...case-prep.html

Fancy that, another thread here...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=129771

And I've been accused of having reached the end of the internet...I haven't, there are some places I have too much self respect to go but this is kind of an interesting read though it's more long winded than I am-

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=o...nsions&f=false

I'm thinking if you haven't trimmed to less than .888 you can probably work with them, though they will probably shorten some more with use. Many will say never trim a straight wall pistol case and I say well, maybe...but if I were good enough to be a competitive shooter at 50yds with a handgun (I'm not, but if I were even halfway close I'd be struggling to remove every possible cause for error) I'd at least be sorting my brass so that they were all within a few thousandths of each other.

Only thing is that the .45ACP is supposed to head space on the case mouth (and there's an exception to that with cast lead bullets) and too much crimp/not enough crimp, too long a bullet seating or too short a case could interfere with that and cause plunk test problems...

Don't buy into the myth of some bulge-busting factory gee-wiz die for solving a process problem...let's figure out what is really going on!

What length did you trim the cases to and lets work forward from there...if they are too short, well, send Yankee2500 a pm and he might be able to find you some brass...we are recycling the cases after all and you're showing the proper dedication to a complete and thorough process-perhaps without quite enough guidance-but you are trying to do it "just right" which is to be commended and ultimately our art begins with making sure the brass is good to go!
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Last edited by Capt. Methane; 01-19-2013 at 10:46 AM.
  #9  
Old 01-19-2013, 10:48 AM
srtolly srtolly is offline
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I haven't been reloading long either but I started with the .45 acp. A lot of reading and help from folks like the ones on this forum and others and I got through the tough parts. I'm using plated bullets and while the manufacturer (Berry's in my case) recommends not to excede mid range jacketed data I was advised to use lead data. This has worked well for me.

Lee and Accurate both show loads for plated bullets but again start low and work up, that's half the fun of reloading.
  #10  
Old 01-19-2013, 11:26 AM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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10-4 Eleanor.

I always wanted to say that! It's an old line from Firesign Theater.


Lyman 49th Edition and the Lyman Pistol & Revolver have load data for you.
Unfortunately that load data is tested at 1.275" cartridge overall length.
So it needs to be scaled down to your 1.200" overall length.
With experience and knowledge, you can develop the skill to adjust data in cases like this.
But right now you are a beginner, so you need a little help.

Follow up on all the posts above (and any that follow) so they can help you.
They will help you learn how to think through these things, they'll turn you into a real reloader.


Safety note:
For your purposes, you are not in danger zone yet. So you can succeed safely.
You won't be able to go all the way up to max load in that Sierra book,
but eventually you will be able to go about half way. How to do that safely?
Just learn from these guys on 1911Forum and they will keep you on track.


Also, many of the sales persons at gun shops and sporting goods stores
are the worst source of advice ever, a few of them are excellent.
Your problem is that you can't tell the difference yet. Hang in there. We'll help.
  #11  
Old 01-19-2013, 11:33 AM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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By the way, in the grand scheme of things this isn't a big problem.
It's one of the tasks and skills we practice along the way.

As stated above, different bullets from different manufacturers fit different guns differently.
So we have methods for adjusting cartridge dimensions, which require adjustment to load data.
It's a skill. It's not a problem.
  #12  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:34 PM
mattyusk2002 mattyusk2002 is offline
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I load my Nosler fmjs at 1.21" lol. At this length it still took just over 5gr of w231 to cycle my slide. If you start at suggusted starting load for your bullet or go .4gr less you'll probably be fine if you have a forgiving powder.
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  #13  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:12 PM
erikk erikk is offline
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Don't buy into the myth of some bulge-busting factory gee-wiz die for solving a process problem...let's figure out what is really going on!

No it won't fix a process problem but it sure fixes my range pick-up Amerc brass. Just finished reloading 200 mixed brass with 230 gr E-xtreme plated and about 70% of the Americ failed the plunk test and had to go through the LEE bulge buster to pass (no problems with Federal or Remington) All rounds will now feed through my Para p-12 , Kimber Eclipse Ultra 2, Colt Commander and Series 80 MK4 5 inch Reloaded on a Dillon SDB

Last edited by erikk; 01-19-2013 at 02:12 PM. Reason: add
  #14  
Old 01-19-2013, 06:13 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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Thank you so much already!!

I just got home and after putting the little dude to bed, I'll head down stairs and take some pictures along with some detailed info..

Thank you!
  #15  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:39 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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Alright, lots of pictures! Since I can only have 10 per post, I'll make multiple posts, I hope thats ok.

First I'll start with some info.

Using Speer manual #14, using RCBS RockChucker, RCBS powder measure, RCBS scale, RCBS carbide .45acp taper crimp dies.

I trimmed my cases because I had read that having consistent length will produce a more consistent crimp. This seamed to make sense to me, is this wrong?

My equipment.
  #16  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:40 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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Case Data.

Trimmed to .888

Flare on mouth of case.

My bullets.



  #17  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:41 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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My factory ammo, Blazer Brass

Factory COL. 1.264

Factory round compared to my bullets.

My bullet "sticking" into flared mouth of case to be loaded.

I have 2 barrels I'm trying my rounds into. One is from a Springfield Range Officer, second is a Sig Sauer C3. They fit into the Range Officer before they will fit into the Sig. I started at the recommended COL 1.26, and worked down by .01 at a time, each time I took pics of the fit in each barrel.

This is my bullet data per the Speer manual. 45 TMJ RN 230grn Ballistic Coefficient .153, Sectional Density .162, COAL tested 1.260, Speer part number 4480.

And my load data. Power Pistol 7.0 GRS START charge. Max Charge 8.1 GRS.
  #18  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:42 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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My barrels.

This is the factory ammo fitting into my barrels, each set of pictures I will show the Springfield barrel, then the Sig.
Factory fit.

Now my load with a COL of 1.26

And the fit @ 1.26
  #19  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:43 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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Fit @ 1.25

Fit @ 1.24
  #20  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:43 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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At 1.24 it fits the Springfield RO.

But it still does not fit the Sig.

Fit @ 1.23

Fit @ 1.22

Feels good, passes spin test in the Springfield.
  #21  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:44 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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Fit @ 1.10

At this point it fits the Sig, but does not spin.

Fit @ 1.198

Passes spin test in Sig @ 1.198
  #22  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:45 PM
Eleanor08 Eleanor08 is offline
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Side by Side of factory VS my load.


After crimp.


Crimped to .470

Completed load.


Ok, thank you for looking at all of this, I hope I have enough information here, if not I can get more.

I am seating and crimping all at the same time.
Thank you again!!!
  #23  
Old 01-19-2013, 09:11 PM
TTNuge TTNuge is offline
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Oops
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  #24  
Old 01-19-2013, 09:24 PM
FB67 FB67 is offline
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Looking at your picks and comparing commercial to reloads in the barrel I think you should make sure you are sizing the brass completely insert your de- priming and sizing die all the way down until it bottoms out on the shell plate and back it off a half turn and increase the taper crimp this may allow you to seat at 1.25
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  #25  
Old 01-19-2013, 09:44 PM
srtolly srtolly is offline
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The bullets are .450 which seems a little on the small side. The ones I use are .452 by my caliper (which isn't a nice starret). I use my seating die to seat first then back off the seating stem and adjust to crimp only and found that this works better than trying to do both at once.
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