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  #1  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:30 AM
GI Dave GI Dave is offline
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1911's without Firing Pin Safeties




Hi Folks !
I'm new to this forum but have owned 1911's since the early 80's. I'd like your opinions on what are the current 1911's without the FPS. I already have a couple of Series 70's and a Les Baer but I'm looking for one with a rail. I'm pretty sure my first Kimber lacked an FPS but recently I've heard they use something like a Schwartz ( ? ) safety ? Any advice would be welcome.
GI Dave
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:55 AM
Dave Waits Dave Waits is offline
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Firing-pin Safeties are not a requirement for a 1911. They're mainly used to permit sales in California. While it's true that the Swartzblock Firing-Pin Safety was invented by a Colt Engineer in 1934, Colt themselves did away with them for many decades, not using a FPS until the Series 80s came out in response to Californias' Drop-test requirement.

If you go to Colt's site you'll see that they sell both 1911s with the FPS and without.
Much ado about nothing.
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  #3  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:01 AM
Neumann Neumann is offline
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A Schwarz mechanism blocks the firing pin via the grip safety. Other systems use take up in the trigger. The Schwarz block preserves the crisp trigger pull we like in the 1911.

Purists notwithstanding, a firing pin block provides a layer of safety if the pistol is dropped or the sear fails. Nearly all modern pistols have a block, disengaged by a long trigger take up.
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  #4  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:02 AM
Mike_Fontenot Mike_Fontenot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI Dave View Post
Hi Folks !
I'd like your opinions on what are the current 1911's without the FPS. I'm pretty sure my first Kimber lacked an FPS but recently I've heard they use something like a Schwartz ( ? ) safety ?
I think the Kimber models that have the FPB include a "II" (Roman numeral 2) in the model name. I think most (maybe even all) of their models have it. It is controlled by the grip lever, not by the trigger (which is what controls the "series 80" FPS), so it is similar to the Schwarz FPS (which I think was used by Colt for a while before they switched to he Series 80 FPB, or at least it was invented there).

I'm one of the few people who actually WANTED a FPB, and I wanted it to be grip-controlled, not trigger-controlled, so Kimber was the only make that satisfied my requirements. (I bought a 10mm Eclipse Custom II about a year ago).
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  #5  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:10 AM
krait1 krait1 is offline
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The schwartz uses the grip saftey and the 80 uses the trigger. Some people prefer the schwartz becasue it does not add moving parts to trigger mechanism. Others don't like the schwartz becasue it had a lot of issues intially with reliablity and added complexity to the takedown and reassembly.

I can't speak to the Schwartz. Don't have any 1911 that have one. I do have a series 80 that feels just like all my others traditional models. On a series 80 if you really don't like it you can removed it pretty easily. I do not know on the schwartz if that is possible.
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  #6  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:14 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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If properly set up.. they all run fine.

Put it this way... just about every single semi-auto pistol on the market has a fire pin safety on it, Glocks, XDs, M&Ps, etc.

The ONLY people that ever complain about them are 1911 owners.

Kimber "Series II" pistols use the Swartz safety in them. The Desert Warrior and a few other pistols now in production do not. But anything with "II" in the name has it.

MIke.
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  #7  
Old 09-21-2012, 12:49 PM
maxwayne maxwayne is offline
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Ruger did NOT include one in their 1911. They use a titanium firing pin and a hd firing pin spring.
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  #8  
Old 09-21-2012, 02:05 PM
k_dawg k_dawg is offline
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I also bought a Kimber due to the firing pin safety. As an avid motorcyclist who carries, I value the feature. To me, it's just another layer of protection to my helmet/jacket/riding pants/boots/etc.
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  #9  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:06 PM
Kodadek Kodadek is online now
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I don't deal with/care for them. End of story on that. I have a grip and a thumb safety, let me not forget to mention a very well developed finger that stays off the damn trigger. They are not needed in my opinion. Why? Bet you there are thousands of 70's series style 1911s owned by the swarming, seething masses of this forum. Should we find out what percentage of a percentage have had an ND or Mechanical Discharge do to a lack of any sort of firing pin safety? A need would constitute a grave danger being addressed, or a requirement to enhance some aspect performance wise. They are wanted by some individuals, that is the overall truth of the matter and if you want one? Well good for you.

If you want to have one? Great. If you feel like everyone should have them because all other autos use them, "Because all them other gunamkers use the dang things!"

Well, then I guess you cannot yell about Obamacare as almost all other industrialized nations have public healthcare...we should too. We will not have to argue long over second amendment, most all other countries strongly limit and/or prohibit gun ownership. Now I'm not knocking anybody or saying I believe the crap I just posted, I'm just saying that everyone else doing something doesn't mean that is the right way or the only way. If you want one you do not need to justify it to me or anyone else. Same thing on my side.

I know we're saying how we feel because the OP asked but "Because all the other kids are jumping off the bridge mama," strikes me as a such a sheepish mentality.
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  #10  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:20 PM
Nemo Experiments Nemo Experiments is offline
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My most recent 1911 purchase is a Cimarron 1911, which is actually a spruced up Armscor, like Rock Island. Doesn't have a firing pin safety.

I've put over 500 rounds through mine so far including a lot of defense JHPs without a single failure of any type! It's an affordable gun too, whole lotta value for the dollar I'm very happy with mine. I got the high-polish blued one for $550, they also have polished nickel and parkerized. The parkerized one is even more inexpensive, like $375-$400 give or take. I would definitely recommend this gun, Armscor and Cimarron have excellent customer service as well.

Here are a couple pics of mine wearing some Ajax grips
the 'spots' on the gun are actually a reflection of a leopard-print sheet that's on my ceiling acting as a lampshade









the parkerized isn't shiny if shiny isn't for you

Woops didn't see that you wanted one with a rail. Armscor and RIA have some great rail-guns without firing-pin safeties
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  #11  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:22 PM
Brian R. Brian R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxwayne View Post
Ruger did NOT include one in their 1911. They use a titanium firing pin and a hd firing pin spring.
As does Springfield
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  #12  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:28 PM
miztic miztic is offline
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My STI Trojan doesn't have a firing pin safety either, my firearms instructor made sure to tell me that my gun was an obsolete model
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:58 PM
KyJim KyJim is offline
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Those which don't have either a firing pin block or Swartz style safety system include Dan Wesson, Les Baer, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Wilson Combat, STI, Rock Island (maybe the other Philippine makers), and some Colts. Probably some others, too.
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  #14  
Old 09-21-2012, 06:11 PM
Kodadek Kodadek is online now
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Throw in Shooters Arms Manufacturing and Metro Arms, both from the Philippines. Also toss in Guncrafter Industries, the Colt 70s series and Wiley Clapp models.
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  #15  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:26 PM
slopemeno slopemeno is offline
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The Series 80 predates the California drop tests by about 10 years.
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:54 PM
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FB3 FB3 is offline
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The Dan Wesson Specialist is a great semi custom pistol with a rail and no additional firing pin safety system. They are really fantastic guns.

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  #17  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:33 PM
Oldsalt65 Oldsalt65 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim View Post
Those which don't have either a firing pin block or Swartz style safety system include Dan Wesson, Les Baer, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Wilson Combat, STI, Rock Island (maybe the other Philippine makers), and some Colts. Probably some others, too.
The Smith & Wesson E Series 1911s utilize a titanium firing pin with a heavy duty spring instead of a firing pin block safety.

The legacy models still have a Swartz style firing pin safety.

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  #18  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:18 PM
sv1kSteve sv1kSteve is offline
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I have read of two ND's due to a lack of a FPS. One guy was a AV guy and he picked up a coil of cable which caught on his pistol pulling it out of his holster, it then dropped striking on the muzzle and firing. Another guy, a detective walked into a MRI room while the machine was running and it pulled his pistol out of his holster and when the pistol struck the housing of the MRI machine it fired, the magnet pulling the FP inside of the slide, the thumb safety was on. A Ti firing pin and a extra strong FP spring is all that is needed to prevent these kind of ND's.
What bothers me about a FPS is the added complexity, add small mechaincal parts and Murphy comes in to setup camp. One guy had his Schwartz safety fail at the range, small pieces fell out and the pistol of course would not fire until GS fixed it.
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  #19  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:22 PM
DR505 DR505 is offline
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Neither of these railed 1911's has a FPS. A Kimber Desert Warrior on the right, a Wilson CQB on the left.
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:38 PM
mikechandler mikechandler is offline
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I just did the magnet test on my Dan Wesson firing pin when I reassembled it. And I was sorry to see that it's not titanium.

It's good to know that - I won't carry it at all until I fix it with a titanium firing pin and HD spring from Ed Brown.

I am a bit surprised they missed that!
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  #21  
Old 09-22-2012, 01:18 AM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Waits View Post
Firing-pin Safeties are not a requirement for a 1911. They're mainly used to permit sales in California.
It's the magazine safety that's a requirement. All new 1911's models in CA are grandfathered onto the approved roster since no one makes one with a magazine safety. One can get among 10 different Les Baers, or many models of Springers, Colts, Kimbers, etc...., and all were grandfathered.

But if someone makes a new model 1911 and puts in a firring pin safety it still wont make the list because the lack of a magazine safety.
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  #22  
Old 09-22-2012, 03:11 PM
Rustin Rustin is offline
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If I'm not mistaken, SA has the titanium pin and HD spring setup as well.
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  #23  
Old 09-22-2012, 03:32 PM
jtq jtq is offline
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Come on fella's, it's Swartz not Schwartz.

Swartz firing pin safety.
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...piw.uspto.gov/

S&W 1911 firing pin safety is a little different. They use a firing pin safety developed by S&W engineer Richard Mochak
http://www.google.com/patents?id=yZU...page&q&f=false
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  #24  
Old 09-22-2012, 03:56 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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Not important to me as I bought 1911s in the 1970s and just bought a Ruger SR1911.

More important for your study should be how Glocks work. Striker fired. No grip safety. No thumb safety. Nothing but that twinkle trigger between you and Glock Foot or Glock Leg.

Have fun in your intergoogle search. Oh yes. A picture. I have had many Glocks. Below a Glock 36. Look into the holster of your local police and see a Glock. Have fun.

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  #25  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:36 PM
45silverback 45silverback is offline
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I don't think it's needed unless you are a lawyer. It's intended to stop drop induced discharges, yes? If you drop a gun, and it's the 1 in 10,000th time that actually causes the FP to move forward with sufficient force to strike/ignite the primer... Where is the projectile going?
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