1911Forum
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > 1911 Manufacturers > Sig Sauer


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-06-2012, 01:44 AM
markm markm is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 286
Combat Sight Picture




Curious about Sig 1911s and their sights, I have noticed that all the other pistols I have from them shoot low. In their FAQ the call this "combat" sight picture. So it this something they have made up to explain low shooting? I don't understand, throughout my life I have sighted either target (set aiming black on top of front sight) or other, which i would call combat (aiming for point of impact). I have now idea why you would aim above or cover your target with sights, personally i like to see what i'm shoot at.

So saw a 1911 ultra the other day, have many Colt, Kimber and SAs, do the sigs 1911s shoot low also?

Thanks,
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-06-2012, 02:11 AM
ProTalibanHunter ProTalibanHunter is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Age: 23
Posts: 30
How close are the targets your shooting at? Only thing I can think of is the bullet drop at a certain distance after leaving the muzzle. Sometimes at close distance work you need to aim a little high. For instance shooting a human silloette targets head from 15m and in with an AR you need to aim at the very top of the head or slightly above to hit the target in the "T" kill box(eyes and nose area, makes a "T"). 25m is the sweet spot where your sights are a perfect match with your bullets trajectory, for an AR anyway. Now I don't know pistols very well so this is just an asumption, but could be the same issue.

--- ProTH
__________________
"It's not the bullet with your name on it you need to worry about, it's the bullet addressed "To whom it may concern" that you need to pay heed to."

"If at first you don't succeed, pull the trigger again!"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-06-2012, 02:16 AM
Infinite Walrus Infinite Walrus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: In the southwest of the midwest
Posts: 180
Can't help with the why, but my brother's Sig 1911 also shoots just a bit low at 7 yards and obviously it's more noticeable as you go out.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-06-2012, 06:50 AM
custom2's Avatar
custom2 custom2 is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,799
Sigs are usually set up so that the bullet goes where the front dot is. If the bullet is hitting the target lower than that, maybe a call to customer service is needed.

Just how low are we talking here? Half inch? 2 inches?
__________________
GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

Not a disgruntled former Sig employee.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-07-2012, 12:32 AM
SmurfHunter SmurfHunter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by custom2 View Post
Sigs are usually set up so that the bullet goes where the front dot is. If the bullet is hitting the target lower than that, maybe a call to customer service is needed.

Just how low are we talking here? Half inch? 2 inches?
Maybe it's the user?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-07-2012, 05:19 AM
custom2's Avatar
custom2 custom2 is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,799
It is possible. That's why I wanted to know how low. It would be helpful to know how the gun groups. If you are getting good groups with it but it is shooting a little low, you can usually rule out shooter error.
__________________
GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

Not a disgruntled former Sig employee.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-07-2012, 01:52 PM
cobrabubbles cobrabubbles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 949
Black out the rear sight "contrast" spot/spots. If it's a night sight put black tape on it.

Here's the deal. line up the top of the irons and note how the dots lined up. Then line up the dots and note how the tops of the irons line up. Combat sights are just that. for combat. Reaction shooting silhouettes at 10 yards it doesn't matter. You stretch that out the 25 yd precise target shooting you are going to introduce variations on your holds on target from all that conflicting information going to your eyes/brain. And frankly, all those compound angles on Novak style sights doesn't help. Note how flat true target sights are. It's for a reason.

Now when you black out the rear dots you will probably find greater consistency in your groups. From there it's just a matter of learning where the particular pistol in question needs to be held on target (with your individual eyes) if you don't have adjustable sights. I need to hold at about 2 o'clock on the seven ring at 25 yds to bullseye with my XO. It's hard to learn that when your hold is different each time. I prefer blacking out the front sight too, but I mostly shoot black targets at 25 and 50 yds, and the white dot can help me get on the center better.

That's what works for me anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-07-2012, 02:33 PM
goldengate goldengate is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
I was having the same issues with my C3, so I blacked out the rear sight too. In order to get the C3 to shoot POA, I have to use sight picture #2. It took me longer to line up correctly, so I covered the rear sight.

This is a rough estimate of how my C3 sight picture looks like.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-07-2012, 02:52 PM
cobrabubbles cobrabubbles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 949
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengate View Post
I was having the same issues with my C3, so I blacked out the rear sight too. In order to get the C3 to shoot POA, I have to use sight picture #2. It took me longer to line up correctly, so I covered the rear sight.

This is a rough estimate of how my C3 sight picture looks like.
Yup exactly what I was talking about. But the relationship of the dots is reversed in the illustration, which makes it even worse. The front dot, the one we're supposed to focus on is smaller not larger. So your eyes are drawn more to the big fat rear dots. And in my case, when I get my eye on the front sight, my eyes want to line up the top of the dots. Because they are easier to see than the black sights and the black bullseye background. But since the front dot is so much smaller, doing so consistently is very difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-07-2012, 09:55 PM
custom2's Avatar
custom2 custom2 is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,799
Yeah, don't line up the dots. Always line up the top of the front to the top of the rear. The bullet will impact the target where the front dot is.
__________________
GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

Not a disgruntled former Sig employee.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-09-2012, 02:30 AM
markm markm is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by custom2 View Post
Yeah, don't line up the dots. Always line up the top of the front to the top of the rear. The bullet will impact the target where the front dot is.
It's a good story but I'm not buying, think about it, the center of the dots appear to be .060-.065 below the top of the sights, i would then expect the impact to be the same distance below since there is no angular difference between the dot placement of the sights.

All my sigs shoot like 3-4" low at 50' with the exception of a P239 that is pretty decent, in contrast to any one of a couple dozen kimbers, colts, SAs that shoot damn near dead on at that distance with top of sights level with center of target.

So next i guess the question is where do i get the right sights, I thought I had seen them on their web site before but can't find them now. I can calculate the number change if i just knew where to get them.

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-09-2012, 08:42 AM
msmedley msmedley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Age: 60
Posts: 133
My sig xo 1911 shoots just a hair above point of aim. If I use sight picture #2 the impact is just above the top of the front sight. This is at 15 yards.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-09-2012, 03:20 PM
cobrabubbles cobrabubbles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 949
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm View Post
It's a good story but I'm not buying
Mark
There's no "Buying" involved. Bench fire the gun holding the irons level, ignoring the dots. Very consistent. I'm making no claim for "it'll hit the bullseye". I'm saying it's the only way to shoot consistent groups beyond 10 yds.

After that you must learn where to hold the gun on the target! There is no other way with a fixed sight gun. You can drift the rear, but elevation is where it is on fixed sight guns. There's a reason target guns have an elevation adjustment.

That's why the old "fear the man with one gun" saying exists. They all shoot differently. My personal XO takes a 2 o'clock hold on the 7 ring for a bullseye. My 45 acp M&P takes a classic "apple on a stick" hold. My 9mm M&P takes a dead center hold, but I replaced the stock sight with a 10-8 U-notch as it's my main "action shooting" competition gun. Now that's at 25 yds. For snap shooting all of that's out the window. Closer range both eyes open, center mass.

The expectation that a factory gun, out of the box is going to hit center with the hold you want is so far beyond reasonable that we need a new word for it. Unreasonable doesn't go far enough. The main reason is YOU! And ME! And everybody else who picks up a gun. We all see differently. You can give two very gifted shooter the same gun, and if the sights are adjustable, they will almost always tweak the sights if they are doing any extended shooting. For a magazine or two they will simply do what I described. Adjust their hold.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-09-2012, 03:27 PM
cobrabubbles cobrabubbles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 949
Oh yeah. As a last resort, you can always put a different height front sight on. Talk to a good smith and tell him/her how high/low it shoots at the distance you normally shoot most often.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-09-2012, 05:43 PM
custom2's Avatar
custom2 custom2 is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,799
So......are we all in agreement that the proper way to aim is to have the tops of the sights lined up with an equal amount of space on each side in between the front and rear sight?

I'm pretty sure that's how I was taught to shoot and have charged people money to learn to shoot this way. Maybe I need to issue some refunds.

Seriously, don't target shoot using the dots. The dots are there for a quick visual reference to aid you in getting the sights lined up. The dots should not be used to line up your sights. Ideally, the dots should line up better but it looks like this is not the case.

If you want to shoot with the hold you want, a shorter front sight is needed to bring the point of impact up. Or you could just use sight picture 2 as posted above and change nothing.

There is no better story than the truth.
__________________
GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

Not a disgruntled former Sig employee.

Last edited by custom2; 08-09-2012 at 05:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-10-2012, 01:03 PM
markm markm is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrabubbles View Post
Oh yeah. As a last resort, you can always put a different height front sight on. Talk to a good smith and tell him/her how high/low it shoots at the distance you normally shoot most often.
Yes I know how to fix it, with different height sights, and to the others I know how to shoot and what the dots are for, and I know what Kentucky windage is, I've been shooting for more years that I care to admit.
My original question was do Sig 1911's shoot low for anyone (not worded exactly) because most all of my other Sigs come from the factory shooting low. It always bothered be and I change the sights to correct, I found the follow quote on their site/FAQ and it kind of explained it, i just thought it was a stupid way to use sights...

" My SigSauer pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?
All SigSauer production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a "combat" sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bulls eye of the target. Using a six o'clock ("pumpkin on a post") or center mass ("half'n'half") sight picture will result in low impact. SigSauer, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2.5 inch groupings @ 15 yards"

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-10-2012, 02:04 PM
cobrabubbles cobrabubbles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 949
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm View Post
I found the follow quote on their site/FAQ and it kind of explained it, i just thought it was a stupid way to use sights...
Mark
No it's not stupid. They don't build target guns. Well they build a few, but as an example, why was the P220 originally built? Not for IDP. They are military/ law enforcement guns at their core.

And again, they shoot low for you. For the way you shoot, and what happens to your grip when you pull the trigger. My XO shoots high. About 4 inches at 25 yards. For me. It could very well shoot low for you.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-10-2012, 05:29 PM
custom2's Avatar
custom2 custom2 is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,799
Measure the sight height from the top of the sight to the slide and report back.

Sig 1911 sights are not numbered like P series guns are so figuring out what sight height you will need will require some quick math.

I'm not trying to start a fight here but if the company has this posted on their website, the sights probably aren't off. You just aren't used to their sight picture. I know for a fact that these guns get shot and the lots will get targeted. If they are shooting low on a target, they don't pass and get sent back from the range.

If you insist on changing the sight, measure it and I might be able to help you figure out what height you need. Dawson Precision has a sight height chart that tells you how much sight height you need to lose to bring the POI up at a given distance.

Let me know what I can do to help.
__________________
GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

Not a disgruntled former Sig employee.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-11-2012, 12:55 AM
SIGmanfrued SIGmanfrued is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 236
This is why I love adjustable combat sights. Since I don't always shoot point of aim point of impact.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2011 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved