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  #1  
Old 01-17-2003, 07:29 AM
Drewsky Drewsky is offline
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Location: Tampa, FL
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Florida carry: When is it brandishing?




Hey everyone, been a lurker on here for awhile and am currently waiting for my Florida CWL to be processed. In the meantime I'm working to absorb as much information I can about the laws, etc. and have come across something I'm not sure about that maybe some other Floridians out there can help out with:

In my CW class, the instructor stated that the only reasons to pull your weapon is either to unload it or to shoot it. It is against the law to present the weapon in the open unless one is intending to use it. Penalties can be as severe as a felony with up to 3 years in jail (asult w/ deadly weapon). This part is understandable to keep people from waving their guns about all the time for intimidation purposes.

However, I recently picked up "The Concealed Handgun Manual" written by Chris Bird (a VERY informative and well-written book I might add), and in there it states a couple actual cases where a BG backed down with just the "presentation" of a weapon. There is also an entry about an extrapolated statistic of "approximately 1/3 of crimes being averted by presentation and not firing a single shot". This tells me that people are drawing their weapons, which presents a conflict to the paragraph above.

So, now I'm a little unsure-at what point does it become brandishing a weapon or assult w/ a deadly weapon, and when (if ever) is it ok? Common sense says that if I walk in on a robbery in the corner 7-eleven and Joe Robber is there and I draw on him and yell real loud, scaring the bejesus out of him and he runs, then that would be likely OK (witness that can corroborate that I was justified and I was in "code red" mode (per the book). BUT, if I'm walking down the street and Frank and John Thug out there are doing something threatening enough to make me feel in danger for my well-being, with no witness to the event, who's to stop them from running to the nearest LEO and getting ME the good guy arrested for ADW?

Thanks in advance everyone.

Drewsky
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Old 01-17-2003, 10:21 AM
gk1 gk1 is offline
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IANAL, but if you draw and intend to shoot, and would be justified in using lethal force, it's not brandishing just because you DIDN'T shoot. The idea is that you shouldn't draw unless you plan to shoot, but you're not REQUIRED to shoot every time you draw. If you do draw, be sure to call the police; that way you're the one telling YOUR story, rather than the one that is being told on.

George
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:53 PM
LWCmdr45 LWCmdr45 is offline
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In the state of Texas, the threat of deadly force (drawing/pointing a CCW) is justified if the use of deadly force is justified. But, many BG's are inured to having guns pointed at them. It's no big deal to them, so you'd better be prepared to follow through and shoot, if necessary. In some situations, the drawing of the gun may escalate the crisis, so use it only as a penultimate resort (the last resort being to shoot) after attempting verbal, non-violent dispute resolution techniques.

I agree that Chris Bird's book is a good one. I had the opportunity to shoot alongside him the last time we requalified as Texas CHL instructors. He shot his CZ75 and S&W M640-1 quite well, unlike many others on the line.

Steve
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Old 01-17-2003, 05:39 PM
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tarpleyg tarpleyg is offline
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Besides, it's not like the BG willl go running to the police yelling, "I was just holdin' this guy up and he pulled a gun on me! Go arrest him.", you know...

GT
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Old 01-17-2003, 05:40 PM
Drewsky Drewsky is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by LWCmdr45
In the state of Texas, the threat of deadly force (drawing/pointing a CCW) is justified if the use of deadly force is justified. But, many BG's are inured to having guns pointed at them. It's no big deal to them, so you'd better be prepared to follow through and shoot, if necessary. In some situations, the drawing of the gun may escalate the crisis, so use it only as a penultimate resort (the last resort being to shoot) after attempting verbal, non-violent dispute resolution techniques.

I agree that Chris Bird's book is a good one. I had the opportunity to shoot alongside him the last time we requalified as Texas CHL instructors. He shot his CZ75 and S&W M640-1 quite well, unlike many others on the line.

Steve
Thanks for the replies fellas. That helped clarify things. My brain is just scenario-izing a lot of different situations now that I'm thinking about it. While I agree that some BG's don't really care if they are in a situation where a weapon is trained on them, my hope would be that should I stumble upon a deadly force situation, my 6'4, 210 build, loud commanding voice and a big ol' .45 barrell at them would be enough to (as Chris Bird very eloquently put it) remind the BG that they have urgent business to attend to in another county. But I guess there are those nuts out there who fail to listen to reason. It DEFINITELY makes one stop and think reading some of those stories about how much $$$ (and sometimes their job) people had to go through to clear their name following a justified shooting!!!

That would be so cool to meet up with Chris on the firing line of a range-that man seems extremely knowledgeable and would be great to chat with him. In Florida we don't have a "qualification" shoot like you guys do for your CWL in Texas, but we have to demonstrate proficiency for safety and use of a handgun. I was quite pleased with myself when the instructor told me that I shoot better than many security guards (they need to qualify) he trains. I'm not perfect though and I'm sure Chris would have some great advice!
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Old 01-17-2003, 07:34 PM
October Rust October Rust is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by tarpleyg
Besides, it's not like the BG willl go running to the police yelling, "I was just holdin' this guy up and he pulled a gun on me! Go arrest him.", you know...

GT


Oddly enough ... right now, there's a farmer who's in jail for manslaughter in the UK for gunning down a burglar with a (legally owned) shotgun. The surviving (but wounded) accomplice burglar is suing the farmer for lost wages, lost utility of his legs, and emotional distress caused by potentially long term sexual dysfunction based on his leg injuries.
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Old 01-18-2003, 11:18 AM
gk1 gk1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by tarpleyg
Besides, it's not like the BG willl go running to the police yelling, "I was just holdin' this guy up and he pulled a gun on me! Go arrest him.", you know...

GT
No, he's more likely to say "I was just minding my own business when this huge guy with a big pistol started threatening me!" And since he called the cops and you didn't, you're likely to be explaining it to a judge, or at least hiring an attorney. After all, when the police show up and you've got a big pistol, his story COULD be true.

George
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  #8  
Old 01-21-2003, 04:37 AM
KLN KLN is offline
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I suggest reading the statute. Florida law is unusually clear on the definition of brandishing. If memory serves, it is 790.06 or thereabouts. Google will find it for you.

In my experience, internet discussions and even CCW class explanations can get you way off track unless you have read the statute first.

Next, I recommend the book, "The Law of Self Defense" by attorney Andrew Branca. Amazon had it last I looked. It is a small, inexpensive book that should be required reading for anyone who carries, in my opinion. Very informative.

Legal advice is best obtained from an attorney.
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  #9  
Old 01-26-2003, 07:41 PM
Citizen_Gilmore Citizen_Gilmore is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by gk1
No, he's more likely to say "I was just minding my own business when this huge guy with a big pistol started threatening me!"

George
Yep!

"I was just asking him for directions and he started pointing that scarey gun at me and calling me all kinds of terrible names and said he was going to kill me, i barely escaped with my life"
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  #10  
Old 01-26-2003, 10:39 PM
Submarine Submarine is offline
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I had to 'remove' an idiot from my house (roomates 'friend', not a real BG) since he decided he wanted to fight me inside my own home. Keeping my .45 at my side in my hand, I persuaded him to leave. He did and called the cops. They interviewed me, took pictures of the gun, but no report or arrest since I didn't point it at him. So maybe that is a good way to show without brandishing but still keeping the gun at the ready.
This was Arizona, your state may vary...
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