Dilemma? Kimber..SIG

[Onegoodshot]

Originally Posted by SIGmanfrued

I can't figure out why people are having so many issues with finding holsters. Now as far as railed Sig's, yeah that makes sense but the non-railed I dont get it. All my holster say they are colt 1911 but fit my Sig perfectly. I mean the leather at first was tighter than all Hell. I mean super tight, almost as if it was glued in there. But a little stretching and it fits like a glove, much better than O.J.'s.

Same here. Most of the Galco's fit fine. All of the Yaqui Slide type. And if its a Custom built rig...WTF?? Nice place for belts is Hanks Clothing Supply in N.Y.
Heavy duty black or brown for less than $30.

[FB Si]

Originally Posted by Onegoodshot

There are no "facts" to this. Hand fitting might be better in some areas, but it does not assure better quality. Depends on who does the fitting. Lesser quality cast, or quality control on steel parts, will not match high quality MIM. Consistant quality control, or higher quality inital design, will provide a superior product in the long run. All research is not equal, and will not assure comparative results. I won't say anything negative about Sig 1911's. I won't say anything negative about Kimbers either. I WILL say that in my (VERY considerable) experiance, with BOTH, they are both fine production weapons.
You chose a Sig. That is the only "fact". There is some bias regarding the non traditional external extractor on Sigs. There are many that believe a 1911 with a trigger associated "Series 80", firing pin safety cannot achieve a trigger with the smooth quality of the Swartz type firing pin safety. Many repeat the myths surrounding MIM parts, ignoring the tens of millions of rounds fired from Kimbers, and others with MIM parts.
There are many very subtle differences that drive the competition in 1911 manufacture. I like the differences, I like discovering the differences. I'm not alone in that. I have owned enough Sig 1911's and Kimber 1911's to assure anyone with reasonable discretion, one is NOT better than the other. They are
different within the brand, and within the models offered. Choose wisely for what you seek. I'm glad you found a Sig you're happy with.
I believe YOU, to have the emotional response, with loyalty to your choice.
You believe your "research" to be infallable and unbiased. My OPINION is based upon many thousands of rounds, and years of ownership of various models of BOTH brands, as well as others.

It would be wise for you to PM "Custom2" and talk to him about hand fitting.

Edit: changed my mind since your points are severely flawed.

MIM: Your point about mim is like saying, "well, Yugo's have been driven millions of miles all over the world", when we know that they are lower quality vehicles than Honda or Toyota. That's selective in nature.

Your "VERY CONSIDERABLE EXPERIENCE", does not trump the experiences of thousands of 1911 owners, readily available all over the interwebs.

I never said anything about my research being "infallible". I just said that my research was open-ended and that I would buy the 1911 that was the best value, based on the word/experiences of others. You can't sit there and say that Kimber is the best value and not be lying.

Regards.

[Onegoodshot]

Originally Posted by FB Si

It would be wise for you to PM "Custom2" and talk to him about hand fitting.

Edit: changed my mind since your points are severely flawed.

MIM: Your point about mim is like saying, "well, Yugo's have been driven millions of miles all over the world", when we know that they are lower quality vehicles than Honda or Toyota. That's selective in nature.

Your "VERY CONSIDERABLE EXPERIENCE", does not trump the experiences of thousands of 1911 owners, readily available all over the interwebs.

I never said anything about my research being "infallible". I just said that my research was open-ended and that I would buy the 1911 that was the best value, based on the word/experiences of others. You can't sit there and say that Kimber is the best value and not be lying.

Regards.

You should read what Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat has to say about MIM.
I chose my words carefully and never said that Kimbers or any other brand is best value.
My very considerable experiance does not "trump" experiance of thousands of
world wide users, but it is enough to substain my opinion.
If your "reasearch" is reading forums, and parroting opinions, then I know where are differences are. About 100,000 rounds and 30 years, over 30 1911's.


easily found on the internet, and probably why Sig has added MIM parts to their 1911's.
From Frank Robbins of wilson combat"
"MIM parts are extremely dense and very exact. They are much less prone to wear and breakage than a factory Colt, Spfg. etc. part. This is why we use them in our CQB's, etc. Although not quite as hard as our tool steel parts, they will last a very long time. This is why we can still quarante our total gun, including the MIM parts, for life.

The tool steel parts are actually overkill. The MIM parts last for life (I know of one gun that has over 100,000 rounds thru it and the trigger pull feels the same as it did when new) therefore I guess you could say the tool steel parts lasts for a lifetime and ½.

We use the tool steel parts in our full custom guns. (These are the ones that cost from $2800.00 up) Our full custom guns, Stealth, Tactical Elite, Super Grade and Tactical Super Grade, are not for everyone because of price. They are intended for someone that can afford the very best we can do.

They [tool steel] actually won't last any longer, shoot any straighter or be more dependable than our CQB's, Protectors and Classics, but we spend many extra hours in fitting and prepping them for a perfect cosmetic handgun as well as a great shooter. And because of this, we use the tool steel parts that take longer to fit.

Again, all of us guys here, including Bill Wilson use the very same MIM parts in our guns. And we shoot a bunch! Once installed and fit, no one can tell the difference in the feel of the trigger pull with either type of parts.

Ok, I'm done with my book. Hope this helps too. Just didn't want you all to believe everything you read from self appointed experts.

Frank Robbins Wilson Combat"

[FB Si]

It must be stated that MIM varies wildly in quality. This is not opinion, it is a fact.

The only "self-appointed expert" is you based on your own words: "very considerable experience". Now if that "experience" was in mim and other metal manufacturing and not rounds fired, that would hold much more weight.

[Onegoodshot]

Originally Posted by FB Si

It must be stated that MIM varies wildly in quality. This is not opinion, it is a fact.

The only "self-appointed expert" is you based on your own words: "very considerable experience". Now if that "experience" was in mim and other metal manufacturing and not rounds fired, that would hold much more weight.

Not sure who you are quoting? "self appointed expert". I'm not expert at 1911's, function or manufacture. That is why I'm not making declarations about what is "best value". Please find me the threads where MIM parts on Kimbers have failed. There are threads here where Sig thumb safeties have failed. Parts on 1911's fail sometimes.
If you believe you have "best value", then I'm not going to change your mind.
Many on other Forums believe same about their Kimbers, Colts, Springfields, Dan Wessons, Baers, Browns, Wilsons, Taurus, RIA, etc. ad nauseum. If you get to have similer experiance with 1911's and shooting and people I've shared experiance with, then you will be fortunate. I'm not an expert. I learn things all the time, every day.

[FrontRangeFuzz]

Originally Posted by FB Si

The only "self-appointed expert" is you based on your own words: "very considerable experience".

That wasn't OGS's own words. He was quoting another source, from Wilson Combat. No offense, but discounting someone's 30+ years of shooting experience simply because he doesn't have MIM manufacturing experience is a little short-sighted. I'm not trying to speak for him, but if 30 years of shooting spread over 30 1911's and 100K rounds doesn't give you a feel for what works and what doesn't, then I'm not sure what does. It seems that every thread in which you participate degenerates into a pissing contest, for no real reason. Switch to decaf, perhaps?

Moving along, yes, MIM varies widely in quality. Yes, Kimber uses more of it than Sig. Yes, both companies are VERY GOOD at making high quality MIM parts for their 1911s. I was unaware that Wilson used MIM on their CQB's. That says alot about modern processing techniques.

Again, if we're talking Kimber vs Sig, for the price I'll take Sig. This is based on fit and finish, quality, more options included for your dollar, and the excellent customer service I've received from Sig over 6+ years of owning their guns. Kimbers are fine guns, but Sig gets my vote. In all honesty, "bang for the buck" is completely subjective. Pick what you want.

[FB Si]

Originally Posted by FrontRangeFuzz

That wasn't OGS's own words. He was quoting another source, from Wilson Combat. No offense, but discounting someone's 30+ years of shooting experience simply because he doesn't have MIM manufacturing experience is a little short-sighted. I'm not trying to speak for him, but if 30 years of shooting spread over 30 1911's and 100K rounds doesn't give you a feel for what works and what doesn't, then I'm not sure what does. It seems that every thread in which you participate degenerates into a pissing contest, for no real reason. Switch to decaf, perhaps?

Moving along, yes, MIM varies widely in quality. Yes, Kimber uses more of it than Sig. Yes, both companies are VERY GOOD at making high quality MIM parts for their 1911s. I was unaware that Wilson used MIM on their CQB's. That says alot about modern processing techniques.

Again, if we're talking Kimber vs Sig, for the price I'll take Sig. This is based on fit and finish, quality, more options included for your dollar, and the excellent customer service I've received from Sig over 6+ years of owning their guns. Kimbers are fine guns, but Sig gets my vote. In all honesty, "bang for the buck" is completely subjective. Pick what you want.

He said he had "very considerable experi(a)nce" (sic) with 1911's. Please re-read his post that I quoted word-for-word. Thank you.

As for the rest of your post, your opinion is noted.

[custom2]

Guys, both brands are VERY high quality. Both companies have a very well known reputation.

Value for the dollar you spend is where I think Sig has the upper hand. Both companies seem to start off with the same core components and build their models up from there. Another place where Sig has an advantage over other brands. They offer forged slides and frames, bar stock hammers and sears and front strap checkering on ALL models and then take that foundation and add more options from there.

I will use the Kimber Super Match for example again. Take a Super Match and compare it to a Custom II. The Super Match has the same MIM fire control parts as a Custom II. It has the same MIM safeties as a Custom II. It pretty much is a TLE II with a nice paint job with target sights and a price tag 1000 dollars more than a TLE II.

Compare an XO to an STX now. You have the same core materials to build on throughout the line like Kimber does only you get more VALUE with Sig. You get front strap checkering on all models and tool steel hammers and sears. You get the same level of hand fitting on Sigs all throughout the line. Yes you will get the same MIM safeties and othe small parts on an XO and a STX like on a Kimber but the core of the pistol has more value. Now the best part about it is the price difference between an XO and an STX is only a few hundred dollars rather than a grand when comparing Kimbers base model to it's top shelf model.

So, I can honestly say that both brands make fine pistols. But I feel Sig is the far better value.

[FrontRangeFuzz]

Originally Posted by FB Si

He said he had "very considerable experi(a)nce" (sic) with 1911's. Please re-read his post that I quoted word-for-word. Thank you.

As for the rest of your post, your opinion is noted.

And feel free to re-read MY quote, reference the "self appointed expert" remark, which came from the Frank Robbins/Wilson Combat passage that was cited. I don't think that's how OGS was attempting to portray himself, that's how you labeled him when he cited his experience - which, in the context of this thread, didn't seem inappropriate for him to do given the circumstances.

Anyway, my thoughts re: Sig v Kimber have been noted in several posts. Something about that one adage reference arguments and "getting drug down to 'their' level" is ringing in my head at the current juncture, so that'll be it from me. Carry on.

[Onegoodshot]

I've given some thought to this. In the world of 1911's, some of the value IS in the mechanical, and in production 1911's, Sig is MORE than it should be at the price point. I feel I must note as I have before, I've owned some of the BEST Sig 1911's. I was advocate of Sig, and challenged this site to offer Sig 1911's their own Forum. I'm glad that happened.
There is also intrinsic, and asthetic value. My Kimbers have been fine shooters,
I like the smaller than Commander, Bull Barrel design offered on some models.
Some like pistols without frontstrap checkering. Some insist upon traditional slide section profile. Some insist upon traditional extractor. Kimber offers alot of choices for those that want choices. Alot of 1911 shooters find the Series 80,
firing pin safety, inhibits a smooth trigger function. Some feel the Kimber Swartz deteriorates and becomes a liability at high round count. I don't feel Sig has dollar value advantage, UNLESS they have the weapon YOU want. Kimber still offers, (when you can find them) some great pistols at less than $1000.

This all began.. Sig VS Kimber, Just my opinion here, but I believe it should be Sig AND Kimber. I Want BOTH! Kimber I want is Classic Pro (no Swartz) with Turnbull blued finish, and TruIvory (fake) grips. Sig I want, is the Nightmare Carry, in .357 Sig. (BadAZZ)

As for my experience, it has taught me all the things I don't know. It has reminded me of all the things I might hope to learn. It has cost, myself, and sometimes others. Value, by definition, is implied rarity, and difficulty to achieve. Experience is valuable. If my experience has no value to
some here, that is with them. I try to contribute as I may, I enjoy visiting the Forum.

[LEO2B]

Alright, nobody back away from the campfire just yet.

Custom 2-perhaps you can shed some light on the SIG source for MIM parts? (As one has alluded to here, there's several quality levels of MIM parts, and it has unfortunately caught on as a blanket phrase on the interwebs to mean "junk")

One 1911 builder I've read has chosen to leave some of his SIG MIM parts on the pistol; a critical part like the slide stop.

[FB Si]

Originally Posted by custom2

Guys, both brands are VERY high quality. Both companies have a very well known reputation.

Value for the dollar you spend is where I think Sig has the upper hand. Both companies seem to start off with the same core components and build their models up from there. Another place where Sig has an advantage over other brands. They offer forged slides and frames, bar stock hammers and sears and front strap checkering on ALL models and then take that foundation and add more options from there.

I will use the Kimber Super Match for example again. Take a Super Match and compare it to a Custom II. The Super Match has the same MIM fire control parts as a Custom II. It has the same MIM safeties as a Custom II. It pretty much is a TLE II with a nice paint job with target sights and a price tag 1000 dollars more than a TLE II.

Compare an XO to an STX now. You have the same core materials to build on throughout the line like Kimber does only you get more VALUE with Sig. You get front strap checkering on all models and tool steel hammers and sears. You get the same level of hand fitting on Sigs all throughout the line. Yes you will get the same MIM safeties and othe small parts on an XO and a STX like on a Kimber but the core of the pistol has more value. Now the best part about it is the price difference between an XO and an STX is only a few hundred dollars rather than a grand when comparing Kimbers base model to it's top shelf model.

So, I can honestly say that both brands make fine pistols. But I feel Sig is the far better value.

My thoughts exactly, and well stated.

[custom2]

Originally Posted by LEO2B

Alright, nobody back away from the campfire just yet.

Custom 2-perhaps you can shed some light on the SIG source for MIM parts? (As one has alluded to here, there's several quality levels of MIM parts, and it has unfortunately caught on as a blanket phrase on the interwebs to mean "junk")

One 1911 builder I've read has chosen to leave some of his SIG MIM parts on the pistol; a critical part like the slide stop.

Sorry, no can do.

[NDCountryboy]

hate to see all the mud slinging here, but i did learn from the mods last post that sigs are forged frames!!!!!?????? I hope thats correct. Iv been a springfield fan over kimber recently soley because of the stronger forged frames...was unaware sig sauer used same process...think i need to retake a look at a few sigs.
I like kimbers fine, they usually have great triggers out of the box. Im just put off by the 1 lousy magazine, and a 1 year limited warranty.....my first 1911 was a custom 2, which shot just fine. I ended up trading her though for a spinger champ model and never looked back, but i am looking at sig now

[FrontRangeFuzz]

You won't be disappointed. Sig triggers are pretty nice out of the box as well.

[Onegoodshot]

ALL Kimbers have ALWAYS used forged frames. EASY to tell the difference if you know what you are looking at.

[NDCountryboy]

i thought they were cast...kimbers always look nice, and have that feel of class, refinment, but they feel weak to me. Springers always tend to scream, im tough, i can take a beating, ya know a workn mans gun. i feel my champion is solidly built! Just my opinion. But some of these sigs look awful nice. Im leaning between the extreme, the nightmare and the scorpion. I prefer black, and am not in love with the scorpion, but its so unique. The colors mixed with those custom g10 grips looks great. Had a chance to feel one a while back. The more and more i hear about sigs the more i want one. Not crazy about the rail on the extreme, but i love the grips. R they made by the same company that did the grips for the scorpion model?

[PuddleMonkey]

I'm a Sig fanboy so it pains me to say this, but give me my Kimber Raptor over my Sig Ultra Nitron. My Raptor has never failed, my Sig on the other hand has failed so much it's currently in the hands of Sauer themselves. Colossal failure of a handgun aside, my Kimber feels better, shoots nicer and is more accurate than my Sig (when the Sig actually works). My TacOps on the other hand is easily my favorite 1911.

[SIGmanfrued]

Originally Posted by Onegoodshot

ALL Kimbers have ALWAYS used forged frames. EASY to tell the difference if you know what you are looking at.

I had an Ultra Covert II that I believe the frame on was aluminum? I may be wrong but I think Im not?

[downtownv]

Originally Posted by .45 ACP Nut

Keep the Sig, get rid of the Kimbers, and get a holster built for the Sig...

Absolutley! This didn't even require any thought.

[Panheadzz]

I have a Kimber Ultra II, a Sig Tac Ops, and a Sig p238. I love 'em all. They all shoot way better than me and I could care less what anyone says about any firearm. The only problem I had with a Sig was it only shot a bit over 50 rnds after dummy me put the recoil spring in backwards and it wrapped around the guide rod. LOL, dummy me. Good thing it happened at the range.

[Onegoodshot]

Originally Posted by SIGmanfrued

I had an Ultra Covert II that I believe the frame on was aluminum? I may be wrong but I think Im not?

You're right most, not all, the Pro and Ultra frames are Aluminum Alloy,
They are roughed (CNC'd) from forged billet.

Sig makes their alloy frames same way.

[RGL01]

Originally Posted by Onegoodshot

Same here. Most of the Galco's fit fine. All of the Yaqui Slide type. And if its a Custom built rig...WTF?? Nice place for belts is Hanks Clothing Supply in N.Y.
Heavy duty black or brown for less than $30.

Thanks for the tip about Hank's Clothing. Looks like a great find. And in Endicott too! The old "shoe capital" of upstate NY!

[Trikegodtroll]

Originally Posted by Onegoodshot

You're right most, not all, the Pro and Ultra frames are Aluminum Alloy,
They are roughed (CNC'd) from forged billet.

Sig makes their alloy frames same way.

I'm thinking Sig outsources the Aluminum frame on their 1911. Plus in the trigger tunnel, it looks like its cast.
It would be nice to know. My 3 month old C3 with 175 rounds is getting replaced. Now for the 6-8 week wait.

[FB Si]

Originally Posted by Trikegodtroll

I'm thinking Sig outsources the Aluminum frame on their 1911. Plus in the trigger tunnel, it looks like its cast.
It would be nice to know. My 3 month old C3 with 175 rounds is getting replaced. Now for the 6-8 week wait.

This was only 2 weeks ago: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=368850

Geez Louise