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  #1  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:49 AM
M882 M882 is offline
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Armory Kote / Black T Difference




Can someone explain the difference between those finishes in black, both color and durability?
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:19 AM
Minx Boy Minx Boy is offline
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Armory kote is a spray and bake finish that lasts a good while, Black T is not a spary and back, but rather actually permeates the metal, which leaves behind rust resistant properties that continue to protect the pistol long after the finish has worn off. Also the armory kote's finish itself will last longer, but once the finish is worn off, it has no rust preventatives left behind in the metal. Black T is a better, more durable finish for the gun itself, and looks prettier IMHO, and has a softer look to it. It is more expensive though. The armory kote is a nice finish aswell, and is stronger, but chips off sometimes, black t does not. If you can afford it, go with the black t
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  #3  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:26 PM
M882 M882 is offline
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Thanks, Minx.

How is the Black T applied?
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  #4  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:33 PM
45addiction 45addiction is offline
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Here is the link to the company home.

I have tried to contact them to ask about applying it to stainless steel. The site indicates that it can be applied to stainless but I haven't been able to talk to a human being about how it holds up.

http://www.black-t.com/index.htm

IMO black t looks much better than the coat because it is a matt, deep, rich color. I have it on my Pro and love the stuff.
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  #5  
Old 05-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Minx Boy Minx Boy is offline
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not sure how it is applied
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  #6  
Old 05-06-2012, 06:16 PM
M882 M882 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45addiction View Post
Here is the link to the company home.

I have tried to contact them to ask about applying it to stainless steel. The site indicates that it can be applied to stainless but I haven't been able to talk to a human being about how it holds up.

http://www.black-t.com/index.htm

IMO black t looks much better than the coat because it is a matt, deep, rich color. I have it on my Pro and love the stuff.
I have a stainless pistol too, and since the surface on stainless pistol is matte and somewhat reflective stainless, my primary concern was whether or not the color would be uniform.
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  #7  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:06 PM
AlchemyCustom AlchemyCustom is offline
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Don't worry, they will handle all the prep to make the finish uniform. We have gotten a few guns done in Black T and have always been impressed. The only thing that wasn't impressive was the T/A time. 8 weeks is a long wait.

Cerakote is better than both, and T/A tends to be much faster. You may also have some hard chromed parts in that gun that make things a bit more tricky. I don't remember exactly what was hard chromed in your gun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by M882 View Post
I have a stainless pistol too, and since the surface on stainless pistol is matte and somewhat reflective stainless, my primary concern was whether or not the color would be uniform.
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  #8  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:59 PM
jawilh87 jawilh87 is offline
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I've been looking between the Black T and the ArmoryKote as well. I have chosen Black T off of a lot of what i have read on the forum. But i'm a little curious about this Cerakote. Why do you say it's better than both Alchemy?
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  #9  
Old 05-07-2012, 01:11 PM
AlchemyCustom AlchemyCustom is offline
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There are tradeoffs in any finish. I typically take into account what is important to a customer. In this situation, since the base material in question is stainless steel, it kind of eliminates the corrosion resistance advantage Black T may have. Cerakote withstands 3500+ hours of Salt Spray Corrosion Resistance Testing.

All the Cerakote testing results can be seen here. http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/testing/

I personally am a believer in Black T and really like it, but the more properly applied Cerakote I see makes me a believer in it as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jawilh87 View Post
I've been looking between the Black T and the ArmoryKote as well. I have chosen Black T off of a lot of what i have read on the forum. But i'm a little curious about this Cerakote. Why do you say it's better than both Alchemy?
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  #10  
Old 05-07-2012, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minx Boy View Post
Armory kote is a spray and bake finish that lasts a good while, Black T is not a spary and back, but rather actually permeates the metal, which leaves behind rust resistant properties that continue to protect the pistol long after the finish has worn off. Also the armory kote's finish itself will last longer, but once the finish is worn off, it has no rust preventatives left behind in the metal. Black T is a better, more durable finish for the gun itself, and looks prettier IMHO, and has a softer look to it. It is more expensive though. The armory kote is a nice finish aswell, and is stronger, but chips off sometimes, black t does not. If you can afford it, go with the black t
This is simply not true. No epoxy based finish "permeates the metal." If you see metal, it is not protected anymore.
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  #11  
Old 05-07-2012, 05:35 PM
Mjolnir74 Mjolnir74 is offline
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Walter Birdsong himself told me his finish permeates the metal and the color is there for the looks.
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  #12  
Old 05-07-2012, 05:58 PM
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Mr. Birdsong was then mistaken.

Out of curiosity, how "porous" do you think your gun is? This bit, and many resellers of coatings use it, is marketing hype and hype alone.

Another question: what do you think Black T is made of? Do you think Birdsong makes their polymers? If not, then they are stuck with the same polymers available to everyone else.

I'm not aiming this at you, rather I am trying to help dispel a marketing myth.

Cheers!
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  #13  
Old 05-07-2012, 06:53 PM
Minx Boy Minx Boy is offline
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Well then the SACS lied to me as well as Birdsong's daughter whom I emailed when they both told me it permeates the metal, oh and the article about the FBI contract when they were talking about the finishes, oh and every single other person on here but you. They ALL lied to me then correct?

It wouldnt make sense because Black T finish comes off fairly easily, and if that was the case, if there were no more protective element, then it would not be used
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  #14  
Old 05-07-2012, 07:06 PM
Mjolnir74 Mjolnir74 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blr View Post
Mr. Birdsong was then mistaken.

Out of curiosity, how "porous" do you think your gun is? This bit, and many resellers of coatings use it, is marketing hype and hype alone.

Another question: what do you think Black T is made of? Do you think Birdsong makes their polymers? If not, then they are stuck with the same polymers available to everyone else.

I'm not aiming this at you, rather I am trying to help dispel a marketing myth.

Cheers!
Thanks for setting me straight. I still would trust Mr. Birdsong over you who I haven't met.
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  #15  
Old 05-07-2012, 07:25 PM
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Electroless nickel under the Black T perhaps. This is what I've heard.

Rosco
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  #16  
Old 05-07-2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlchemyCustom View Post
Cerakote is better than both, and T/A tends to be much faster. You may also have some hard chromed parts in that gun that make things a bit more tricky. I don't remember exactly what was hard chromed in your gun.
What do you think of Ion Bond?
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minx Boy View Post
Well then the SACS lied to me as well as Birdsong's daughter whom I emailed when they both told me it permeates the metal, oh and the article about the FBI contract when they were talking about the finishes, oh and every single other person on here but you. They ALL lied to me then correct?

It wouldnt make sense because Black T finish comes off fairly easily, and if that was the case, if there were no more protective element, then it would not be used
No, not lied. They were incorrectly informed, like you.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mjolnir74 View Post
Thanks for setting me straight. I still would trust Mr. Birdsong over you who I haven't met.
Who am I?

Well, first, did you notice no one but you and Minx Boy seem to think I'm trolling? Here's what everyone else who has been on the forum in the last few years knows:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=275379

As to my relevant experience with anti-corrosion coatings:

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclien...w=1440&bih=739

The USAF paid for my doctorate in anti corrosion coatings. Specifically, I was employed by the B-52 SPO to find a new active anti corrosion coating and test platform for their fuel tanks. Note the publications in the American Chemical Engineers Institute on this topic.

So let me restate my point: There is no protection from the "pores" for conventional epoxy coatings. The only coatings that have "protection" after a defect event happens are "active" coatings. They typically contain hexavalent chromate - no firearms coating that I know of contains this.

Roscoe - Black T may well have a electroless nickel layer. Without a SEM-EDS study, or hearing it from the horses mouth, we'll never know.
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  #19  
Old 05-08-2012, 07:17 AM
45addiction 45addiction is offline
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So, Dr. Riehl, I would be much obliged if you would opine on whether we should expect significantly accelerated wear in a polymer coating (such as black t) that has been applied to a stainless pistol as opposed to a carbon steel pistol.

Regards,

Doug
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  #20  
Old 05-08-2012, 08:01 AM
AlchemyCustom AlchemyCustom is offline
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Regardless of what anyone says about Black T. I worked at Springfield for nearly 20 years. In that time period I saw thousands of pistols carried daily by FBI agents, along with their log book. Rest assured that they do not take very good care of their pistols. They USE them. Coating was worn off everywhere, but I never ever saw any rust of any kind, anywhere. You take a blued pistol in the same condition, and you have rust in all kinds of places you wouldn't expect to have rust.

As for Ionbond, I love the idea of it. I have seen it at it's best, and I have seen it at it's worst. At it's best, it's an extremely durable treatment that looks great. At it's worst, it is taking 8-10 weeks to get done, and if one of the parts is funky looking, you're kinda stuck, or you coat it with something else. I just re-finished a Fusion that was all Ionbond in Cerakote for a forum member and he is finally happy with the gun. Perhaps everyone has seen his complaints whenever Ionbond comes up. He actually had a legit gripe. The frame and slide were extremely mismatched, and the slide took on an offensive "ashy" look if it didn't have oil on it. If you put it in a leather holster and took it out...it looked crazy!

I just like Cerakote because it's extremely durable, comes in a variety of colors, and looks great. It's much more durable than Black T as far as wear goes.

Another consideration is Rocky Mountain Arms Bearcoat. Bob Ford offers a lifetime warranty on his coating, his turnaround is good, and he's a good guy to work with.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:11 AM
Mjolnir74 Mjolnir74 is offline
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Ok. You win. Mr. Birdsong just seemed very insistent that the color was not what protected the metal.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlchemyCustom View Post
Regardless of what anyone says about Black T. I worked at Springfield for nearly 20 years. In that time period I saw thousands of pistols carried daily by FBI agents, along with their log book. Rest assured that they do not take very good care of their pistols. They USE them. Coating was worn off everywhere, but I never ever saw any rust of any kind, anywhere. You take a blued pistol in the same condition, and you have rust in all kinds of places you wouldn't expect to have rust.
In the "thousands" did it occur to you that the areas where the finish wore off were high wear areas? And if so, then any oxide formation that showed up was quickly worn right back off?
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AlchemyCustom View Post
Regardless of what anyone says about Black T. I worked at Springfield for nearly 20 years. In that time period I saw thousands of pistols carried daily by FBI agents, along with their log book. Rest assured that they do not take very good care of their pistols. They USE them. Coating was worn off everywhere, but I never ever saw any rust of any kind, anywhere. You take a blued pistol in the same condition, and you have rust in all kinds of places you wouldn't expect to have rust.
This is absolutely correct. Whatever else someone wants to say about Black T, the fact remains, it works to protect your pistol. It is a damn good product.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:57 AM
AlchemyCustom AlchemyCustom is offline
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Molybdenum Disulfide is a component of the pre-treatment that the parts receive before coating. I would assume it is also integrated into his proprietary Teflon based coating. Molybdenum Disulfide can be wiped on to bare carbon steel to protect it from rust and corrosion, and the Tuf Cloth containing this ingredient is currently being used in place of CLP in the field with 60,000 US Troops. There are claims that it "impregnates" the metal in some way.

When I say coating was worn off those guns everywhere, I don't just mean holster wear. I mean they drop their guns on the ground. A lot of times they would send 5 pistols from Quantico all rattling together in the box with no protection! Not how I would want the gun I bet my life on shipped. It's something that must be seen to be believed.

It's good stuff, and they do a good job applying it. Just like LW said.
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  #25  
Old 05-08-2012, 12:52 PM
Minx Boy Minx Boy is offline
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I'm going to believe LW and Alchemy since I know who they are and I know that Alchemy is a pretty damn good gunsmith and ill trust his word over someone who may or may not be famous on corrosive elements. But I know that SA would not be using it if it didn't have some sort of corrosive element. In sure they had professionals look into the finish before they adopted it for their pistols.
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