Who is the Guru now?

[Onegoodshot]

Under the radar.. Frank Glenn, has taught and coached a lot of operators, competetitors, has been a competitor, and LEO, and builds.

Several of the names mentioned here, were students of Frank on their way up.

LOL, I bet most of you don't even know who he is! You're on a computer, do the search.
If you have custom work needed in the future, its worth the five minutes.

[O2BShooting]

I think that you need to look at this from two different points of view: 1) those that can teach tactics & gun handling & 2) those that can teach just gun handling.

The skills you need to win a fight might not necessarily be those you need in competition. But if you've got skills that are solid they can be used in both. I know that Rob Latham and Todd Jarrett both train military and law enforcement because their gun handling skills can cross boundaries of both disciplines.

I have a lot of respect for the good trainers out there but I do believe in what Clint Smith said in that make sure the trainer is teaching you things that are applicable to what you need. Not everyone needs to be trained as an "Operator. "

JMO,
O2B

[2TransAms]

Originally Posted by LEO2B

So you going to the SS natinals to do some absorbin?

I sure wouldn't be there to do any winnin'.

[simonsay]

Enos/Letham... Gave us the high thumbs forward grip and lots of knowledge. Beyond fundamentals will be around a long time.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by simonsay

Enos/Letham... Gave us the high thumbs forward grip and lots of knowledge. Beyond fundamentals will be around a long time.

You say that as though it didn't come out in the EARLY 90s.

Good point on Brian Enos, that guy can really "think" shooting and explain it well.

Mike.

[GlenS]

Larry Vickers would be my first choice but he seems to have too many other interests right now.

Ayood is a wannabe. He has no first hand experience in what he writes about. Never been in the military. Never been a full time cop. Probably never made a felony arrest. He has studied alot and learned the lingo.

All the custom 1911 gunsmiths just don't quite make it.

I would say Ken Hackathorn is the best bet.

Tied for first place would be John Shaw.

[dakota1911]

In the intergoogle world I think gurus are a thing of the past.

[CountryUgly]

Personally I think Larry Vickers is a joke. To me he seems nothing more than a Sig poster boy who can't keep his mouth shut about how he had his pinky finger in 416 cookie jar.

Now my modern day gun guru's are as follows:

1) without question is Massad.

2) Rob Pincus

3) Larry Potterfield

4) Mike Seeklander

5) Bob Munden

Criticize my picks if you want but when I want real world info on tactics, gun function - operation - maintainence - repair, unarmed defense, or just plain old firearms fun these are the people I go to first.

Ayoob and Pincus IMO give more of the best real world info on tactics than anyone in the biz. I challenge you to find anyone with more knowledge about a broader range of firearms than Larry Potterfield. Mike Seeklander is a great source for info on tactics involving unarmed defense with creative yet simple methods for bringing the gun into the fight and who cannot admit to trying at least one of Bob Mundens amazing shots. Guns would be boring if you didn't have a little fun with them once and awhile.

[38 Super +p]

Yeah, Larry Vickers couldn't hold Col. Cooper's jockstrap IMHO, of course. And I disagree with a lot of Coopers ideas, but he was quite brilliant.

[NRAJIM]

are we only talking about handguns? my choice for innovation in firearms/rifles Ronnie Barrett. His 50BMG design has saved many of our military. Anyone who can design and build a weapon than can suppress enemy action at 1.5 miles is a guru. As the saying goes, those that can do, those that can't write.

[Herbert Cannon]

Pat Sweeney for his many gun books.

[wichaka]

Ayoob & Pincus???? Read post #31, it applies to both.

As posted on another forum, and so sums up his drivel;

Ayoob; The fossil-poster boy of "say one thing when you're paid to, another when you're not"

I'm really surprised that ANYONE listens to anything that comes out of his mouth anymore. I'm not sure he was relevant in the 80's let alone now. Oh, and he can't shoot for crap either.

I have met Mas many times, he's duped many people and built his own pedestal to place himself upon.

As for Pincus, he still stands on the belief that its okay to throw someones gun across the range.

[TN.Frank]

Originally Posted by 45'r

Great Frank! .... Let's get another conversation about this clown rolling again ...

I have NO Earthly Clue WTF you're talking about here.

[Dave Waits]

Gentlemen, after reading all these posts, it seems that before anything else, we have to come up with a common definition of guru as it pertains to guns. Seriously, if you look at what's written and stated nowadays, we have everyone from the Self-Proclaimed 'Duke' Venturino who is nothing but a cast-bullet shooter and a burgeoning Full-Auto Collector to Larry Vickers, my opinion of that person is common-knowledge.

What is a guru? It sure isn't an 'Operator' because tactics isn't everything. It isn't a 'Firearms-Expert' because the guns aren't everything. I would have to say that a true guru( I hate that term) is someone who intimately knows every facet of the sport. Unfortunately for us, most all of them have passed on. Names like Keith, Cooper, Skelton, Jordan, Askins, etc. There are damned few out there who even come close, maybe Hackathorn and Smith.

[38 Super +p]

I'll nominate Charles W. Clawson.

[stillwater]

There's always Clint Smith for tactics and accuracy.

I like some of the guys around here for gun lore (dsk, pistolwrench and Dave Severns...) Yes, I'm leaving some out but these guys are GOOD.

There's also that crazy guy in Nevada....

[Gary1911A1]

As far as having fired shots in anger, their knowledge of the 1911 and perhaps the most important, their ability to hold your attention when they speak I would have to go with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn and Clint Smith. I've had training classes with the first two and they are top notch.

[6285108]

LAV (Vickers), Hackathorn, Dave Harrington, and Anthony (Stony) Smith and Grant Timberlake and Chris Cerino, Drake Oldham, Kevin Davis (Akron Ohio PD). I have trained under these instructors and have found them to be all top flight teachers of pistol and carbine.

[BillD]

Lou Awerbuck (former Gunsite teacher) has been teaching LEO's and non-LEO's how to kill people without getting killed for a long time now, as has Pat Rogers.

IIRC, Cooper gave himself the title of guru. He wasn't a pistolsmith but a trainer and competitor, deep thinker and writer.

Many men have seen the elephant much more than Cooper ever did, Vickers being one of them.
Cooper could write though and others couldn't.

He kinda reminds of Capstick, the African hunting writer. They say he got the material for his most memorable hunts at the bar in Nairobi, but he could write.

Also, let's not forget that for YEARS Cooper wouldn't let an AR (poodleshooter) on the range at Gunsite.

[6285108]

Originally Posted by BillD

Lou Awerbuck (former Gunsite teacher) has been teaching LEO's and non-LEO's how to kill people without getting killed for a long time now, as has Pat Rogers.

2 excellent choices

[supervel]

Originally Posted by BillD

Lou Awerbuck (former Gunsite teacher) has been teaching LEO's and non-LEO's how to kill people without getting killed for a long time now, as has Pat Rogers.

IIRC, Cooper gave himself the title of guru. He wasn't a pistolsmith but a trainer and competitor, deep thinker and writer.

Many men have seen the elephant much more than Cooper ever did, Vickers being one of them.
Cooper could write though and others couldn't.

He kinda reminds of Capstick, the African hunting writer. They say he got the material for his most memorable hunts at the bar in Nairobi, but he could write.

Also, let's not forget that for YEARS Cooper wouldn't let an AR (poodleshooter) on the range at Gunsite.

OH that brings back fond memeries from the good ol day's before computer comando's.

[GunBugBit]

Originally Posted by 38 Super +p

Yeah, Larry Vickers couldn't hold Col. Cooper's jockstrap

As a warrior, the reverse is true. Having made it through Delta selection alone puts Mr. Vickers in a very elite category. Army Ranger school is plenty hard to get through, but plenty of guys who make it through that and go to Delta selection are found lacking. Same with Army SF (Green Berets). However those guys have a far better chance than most of getting through Delta selection. If you're young enough, join the Army and try making it through any of those schools. Then come back on the forum and disparage someone whose brass you are not fit to polish.

Jeff Cooper's contributions to the shooting world were and are immense, no question.

Larry Vickers contributes in different ways. Saying he's a joke shows a great ignorance about his achievements. I suppose he has "gone commercial", but hey, everybody needs to make a living.

[BillD]

Originally Posted by supervel

OH that brings back fond memeries from the good ol day's before computer comando's.

not including you and I of course.....

[supervel]

I was refering to the last part about the poodle shooter's not Mr. Vicker's. I should have specified. Their are some types like this at AR sites as you may well know.

[simonsay]

Originally Posted by mikeg1005

You say that as though it didn't come out in the EARLY 90s.

Good point on Brian Enos, that guy can really "think" shooting and explain it well.

Mike.

Yeah, it's already been here a while I guess. Enos is about as guru as you can get if guru requires skills and brains.

BTW... why Vogel and not Sevigny? Dave taught us that polymer is just as good as expensive steel, when in the right hands.