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  #1  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:32 PM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Need Load Recipe




My gun will be back after the trigger job on Tuesday, so I'm not actually loading my cartridges yet, but I'm writing down the loads in each plastic bullet container. So far so good except for two bullets.
I checked both my Lee Handbook as well as the Hogdon website under my Powder (Winchester AutoComp)

Bullet Load needed #1 ) RNFP 147 Grain Lead

Bullet Load needed #2 ) TC 120 Grain Lead

If I'm correct, all I need to determine load recipes are the Powder, Bullet Coating or material and bullet weight, so I gave more than needed.

Any ideas of where to find proper Starting Loads and DNE Loads or how to determine them on my own?
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  #2  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:03 PM
Alland Alland is offline
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IMHO the Lyman manuals are about the best place for cast bullet loads.
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  #3  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:09 PM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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No luck on their website.
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  #4  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:46 PM
GT40DOC GT40DOC is offline
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He is talking about the Lymans 49th Edition reloading manual, not a website. A great reloading/reference manual than is invaluable if you plan to do reloading. You can not own too many reloading manuals so you can cross reference information to keep you safe.
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  #5  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:55 PM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT40DOC View Post
You can not own too many reloading manuals so you can cross reference information to keep you safe.
This is true.
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2012, 09:46 PM
rfd rfd is offline
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lymans's 49th does not reference winchester autocomp. it's just far too new a powder, having been released in 2008. best to contact winchester for advice on specific bullet loads for autocomp.
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  #7  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:15 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfd View Post
lymans's 49th does not reference winchester autocomp. it's just far too new a powder, having been released in 2008. best to contact winchester for advice on specific bullet loads for autocomp.
Ty, AGAIN. Save me from wasting my money on something I can't use.
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:57 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Reload data

First of all, when you want suggestions for a reload, it is always best to explain what the caliber of ammo is for the gun. You should start the thread asking help for "9mm load suggestions" and not expect anyone to know exactly which caliber you are talking about. Some different guns use the same bullet weight....

When you use a fairly new powder, many of us long time reloaders use the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule of thumb. Once we find a load that shows good accuracy, good recoil impulse, and meets the velocity criteria we need, we usually stick with it, unless for some reason the powder is discontinued. Sometimes it takes quite a bit of experimentation to find the best load for a barrel/gun, and every barrel may not shoot the same loads as well as another barrel.

I would try to help, but have never used the powder you have on hand. You may find some load data for Win. Auto comp at: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Just click on the "I Agree" terms in the box, you will need to click on the choice of manufactuer (click on the Winchester logo) then follow the prompts to get to the 9mm luger data. This site does show load data for Win Auto comp.

Last edited by richpetrone; 04-29-2012 at 06:33 AM.
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  #9  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:13 AM
Bullitt2075 Bullitt2075 is offline
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Chris. Send an e-mail to hodgdon with the bullet specs and I'm sure they will supply you with the load data you are seeking within 2 business days. They got back to me the same day I had a question about a certain bullet type and powder combo.

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  #10  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:35 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richpetrone View Post
First of all, when you want suggestions for a reload, it is always best to explain what the caliber of ammo is for the gun. You should start the thread asking help for "9mm load suggestions" and not expect anyone to know exactly which caliber you are talking about. Some different guns use the same bullet weight....

When you use a fairly new powder, many of us long time reloaders use the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule of thumb. Once we find a load that shows good accuracy, good recoil impulse, and meets the velocity criteria we need, we usually stick with it, unless for some reason the powder is discontinued. Sometimes it takes quite a bit of experimentation to find the best load for a barrel/gun, and every barrel may not shoot the same loads as well as another barrel.

I would try to help, but have never used the powder you have on hand. You may find some load data for Win. Auto comp at: [url]http://data.hodgdon.com/[url]
Just click on the "I Agree" terms in the box, you will need to click on the choice of manufactuer (click on the Winchester logo) then follow the prompts to get to the 9mm luger data. This site does show load data for Win Auto comp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG164 View Post
I checked both my Lee Handbook as well as the Hogdon website under my Powder (Winchester AutoComp)
My mistake about forgetting to put the first and most obvious info needed.. What size is the bullet i'm shooting !?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt2075 View Post
Thanks Bullitt, RFD said the same about winchester (for obvious reasons), I'm doing so right now.
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:42 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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From Winchester's website...

"POWDER

Winchester Powder is now supplied by Hodgdon. For information see the Winchester Smokeless Propellants web site developed by Hodgdon (913) 362-9455."

Looks like I'll have to wait and call on Monday.
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:07 AM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Chris, please bear with us.
As Brother Rich alluded to, when we see post that are somewhat “disjointed” it makes it difficult to be concise in response.
We can only respond to what was “written” not what you thought you wrote or said.

We may be confused due to several points
As Rich mentioned, ALWAYS mention caliber as your bullets grain weights can be loaded into several different caliber cases and wildcats as well.
It is also helpful to list the COL you will be or wanting to be seating these bullets too.
As well as firearm these loadings will be used in.
(This can affect recommendations on charge weights and other factors in your loading)

You asked “Any ideas of where to find proper Starting Loads and DNE Loads or how to determine them on my own?
If you are loading for the 9MM Luger, this data is available on the Hodgdon web site?

115 GR. LRN Win AutoComp .356" 1.100" Start 4.4grs 1002 24,800 PSI Max 5.1grs 1145 31,500 PSI

125 GR. LCN Win AutoComp .356" 1.125" Start 4.3 grs 1012 26,700 PSI Max 4.8grs 1101 32,800 PSI

The data above from the Hodgdon web site list starting and maximum charge recommendations for both the 115gr and the 125gr Lead
This data can be applied to your 120gr. lead bullet.
Here you can play it on the safe side and use the 125gr. data
You asked “how to determine them (starting & max) on my own?
This is done through the “workup” routine.
Begin at the starting charge weight, increasing in a 10th of a grain increment toward the maximum listed charge weight.
(Make 10 and test before any increase in charge weight)
When “working up” the loadings, monitor for trouble signs and excessive pressure signs.
This protocol, and other “techniques” regarding safe loading procedures are clearly explained in ALL loading manuals.
(You DID read your loading manuals, right?)

For your AutoComp in 9MM, Hodgdon list data for the 147gr. but in a jacketed bullet (Hornady XTP)
All is not lost here, using the jacketed starting charge weight data would be safe to apply to your lead 147gr bullet.

147 GR. HDY XTP Win AutoComp .355" 1.100" Start 3.6grs. 827 27,900 PSI Max 4.0grs. 916 32,800 PSI

Another option for you would be to apply a powder or powders that have more “development data” available for the bullet(s) type you are using.
On the faster powder side, powders like Bullseye, Titegroup, AA No.2, AA No.5 V-V N320 and 231 will have more abundant data available.
On the slower side, powders like HS-6, Power Pistol, V-V N340, V-V N350, AA No. 7 and Blue Dot.
(The AutoComp is designed primarily for using jacketed in high performance application.)
This is why you will not see “reams” of published load data with the lead bullets you have using this powder.

Good Luck
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:14 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG164 View Post
Bullet Load needed #1 ) RNFP 147 Grain Lead

Bullet Load needed #2 ) TC 120 Grain Lead

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGerk View Post

115 GR. LRN Win AutoComp .356" 1.100" Start 4.4grs 1002 24,800 PSI Max 5.1grs 1145 31,500 PSI

125 GR. LCN Win AutoComp .356" 1.125" Start 4.3 grs 1012 26,700 PSI Max 4.8grs 1101 32,800 PSI
I posted for Round Nose Flat Point. I'm guessing that will be the same as what you posted for standard Round Nose ? And the same for my Truncated Cone Vs your posting of Cone Nose ?



Sorry for cutting my post short, I will comment fully on your post.. off to Church now!
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:48 AM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG164 View Post
I posted for Round Nose Flat Point. I'm guessing that will be the same as what you posted for standard Round Nose ? And the same for my Truncated Cone Vs your posting of Cone Nose ?



Sorry for cutting my post short, I will comment fully on your post.. off to Church now!
Round Nose Flat Point
(Round and Flat in the same nose...)

Truncated and Cone are "typically" interchangeable nomenclature, especially when refering to 9MM projectiles

You will have some control over the final or desired COL
As long as the firearm chamber is within the SAAMI minimum and maximum COL limits you should be able to find a comfortable COL with your bullets.


If it were me, I would try and run the 120gr between ~ 1.115” – 1.140” and the 147gr. 1.120” – 1.145” or so if the bullets shank and profile will cooperate.
Whatever gave me the most reliable cycling.
Always consider loading longer if you can, especially if they’re going to be hot.

Remember, most published COL is not “cast in stone”

Good Luck
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Last edited by TheGerk; 04-29-2012 at 07:58 AM.
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  #15  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:34 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGerk View Post
Round Nose Flat Point
(Round and Flat in the same nose...)

Truncated and Cone are "typically" interchangeable nomenclature, especially when refering to 9MM projectiles

You will have some control over the final or desired COL
As long as the firearm chamber is within the SAAMI minimum and maximum COL limits you should be able to find a comfortable COL with your bullets.


If it were me, I would try and run the 120gr between ~ 1.115” – 1.140” and the 147gr. 1.120” – 1.145” or so if the bullets shank and profile will cooperate.
Whatever gave me the most reliable cycling.
Always consider loading longer if you can, especially if they’re going to be hot.

Remember, most published COL is not “cast in stone”

Good Luck
First, what the hell is COL ¿¿¿
Second, how are Truncated and Cone considered interchangeable when referring to bullets when they are the exact opposite!?

and forget what you're recommending my aol to be I can worry about that after I determine how many grains of Autocomp powder I can safely start with.

Jer...I mean Gerk.. Sorry, froidian slip. JKWU ;-)
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  #16  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:55 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Ok, so the main bullets i'm worried about using in my gun for either fun (price consideration is a factor moreso in this field) or competition, through my 9mm Springfield XD with 5" stock barrel are... without material being considered just yet are..
Cone Nose CN
Truncated Cone TC
Round Nose Flat Point RNFP
Semi Wadcutters SWC
Hollow Point HP

Please fill in what I've left out and then I'll add my actual question.
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  #17  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:55 AM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG164 View Post
First, what the hell is COL ¿¿¿
Second, how are Truncated and Cone considered interchangeable when referring to bullets when they are the exact opposite!?

and forget what you're recommending my aol to be I can worry about that after I determine how many grains of Autocomp powder I can safely start with.
I believe a Truncated Cone is just a cone with the tip cut off. As for aol(I believe you mean OAL) the info TheGerk was trying to give you on it is very important. As important as the charge. I don't know where you have learned to reload from, but without knowing what something as simple as COL means, IMHO, you need to do more reading and research before you start stuffing bullets.
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  #18  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:01 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Yes, obviously my acronym was not meant to represent an Internet Service Provider.

The fact is, I AM learning. Take what I say with a grain of salt. Nowhere did I say that the OverAll Length was not important, I was simply more concerned/curious with the Powder Charge before worrying about how much I will need to adjust my bullet seating depth to find the optimal, safest depth.

A TC is also similar in a Semi-Wadcutter in it's flat tipped style which is why I was confused.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG164 View Post
First, what the hell is COL ¿¿¿
Second, how are Truncated and Cone considered interchangeable when referring to bullets when they are the exact opposite!?

and forget what you're recommending my aol to be I can worry about that after I determine how many grains of Autocomp powder I can safely start with.

Jer...I mean Gerk.. Sorry, froidian slip. JKWU ;-)
A 'cone nose' doesn't exist as a bullet shape. That would be like a dunce cap with a point. A truncated cone is that dunce cap with the point clipped off so that the flat that is created is parallel with the base of the bullet. They are commonly referred to as 'flat points'.

The variations within that category are largely based on how far down toward the base of the cone the point is clipped off. The flat point part is called the meplat, and if it is large then it is generally referred to as a 'wide flat point'. WFP bullets generally are semi-wadcutter profile, with the full diameter lip rather a straight truncated cone shape.

Finally, COL means 'cartridge overall length', measured from the bottom of the case to the tip of the bullet. You also see it written as OAL or COAL, but it refers to the same thing. It is important in determining proper length for reliable feeding from magazines (box, tubular, and detachable).
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  #20  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:36 AM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Round Nose.. Sorry, as a beginner Reloader I'm still getting the hang of names and Acronyms for all these bullets.
But what you just said doesn't explain to me how a "flat point" is interchangeable with a non-flat point. ?
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  #21  
Old 04-29-2012, 12:10 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Bullet weights and profiles

When using cast lead bullets, the same weight of the bullet will allow the same powder charge. The overall seating depth may change due to the difference in the bullet profile. In general terms, the longer the bullet, such as a Lead Round Nose, the deeper it will seat into the case. If the bullet profile is a flat point with a shorter bullet profile, it may not seat as deep in the case, and more bearing surface of the bullet may be exposed near the case mouth unless you adjust your seating die. The same is true when using JHP bullets that are the same weight compared to a LRN bullet....the JHP with a shorter profile may require adjusting the seating depth to get more bearing surface of the bullet into the case. If you have a good reloading manual, such as the Lyman 49th edition, it will show the COAL (cartridge over all length) they used when they tested that particular round with that particular bullet profile. Flat point and JHP rounds are usually reloaded with a shorter COAL.
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  #22  
Old 04-29-2012, 12:38 PM
ChrisG164 ChrisG164 is offline
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Got it.. Copy --> Save as..

ty
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:46 PM
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ihmo ..

as a newbie to hand loads, it would serve best to select tried and true components for the caliber in question, as this will make finding load recipes and components easier. easier is better for newbies.

autocomp is too new a powder to be found in most load books. i would not have selected that powder for my first load attempts. yeah, hodgdon's has autocomp loads online, as they should, because winchester powder IS a hodgdon product. but how many load manuals are showing recipes for autocomp?

all that matters with bullets is what the load recipe calls for, and what can safely be substituted.

when it comes to bullets and semi-autos, all that matters to me is what bullet type i want, what bullet hardness, what bullet shape will feed best in my gun(s), what bullet mass weight that the load recipe dictates.

rnfp is simply a round nosed bullet with a flat tip - treat it like a round nose. tc bullets cross section are a combination ogive and semi wadcutter. y'all know what an lswc is, so let's cut to the chase ... given the same caliber/bullet diameter, the same mass weight, then only bullet cross section profile is different (and *perhaps* the oal seat depth for each, as there are effective seat dimension differences for bullets based on their cross section). other than that, the real question is what bullet shape/cross section will properly feed in *my* gun? there are semi's that don't like some bullet shapes ... testing is in order.

and, always verify a dummy round with a good plunk test.

all of the above isn't rocket science, it's mostly just common sense.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:28 PM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG164 View Post
First, what the hell is COL ¿¿¿
Second, how are Truncated and Cone considered interchangeable when referring to bullets when they are the exact opposite!?

and forget what you're recommending my aol to be I can worry about that after I determine how many grains of Autocomp powder I can safely start with.

Jer...I mean Gerk.. Sorry, froidian slip. JKWU ;-)
Missouri Bullets (they call them cones in the "show me state")
9MM Cone
.356 Diameter
9mm Parabellum
125 Grain 9MM Cone


Precision Delta Bullets
B-9-147-FMJ-TC
(TC = Truncated Cone shaped bullet)
Description:.355 diam.
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Grains: 147gr
Type:Full Metal Jacket - Truncated Cone - Copper Jacket


As you can see, depending on what farm you are buying your apples from depends on what name the apple gets. (More on this later)

Brother Chris, relax, this is part of getting started
Finding out what you don’t know, BUT, what you NEED to know.
Don’t take it personal when we try and explain facts and terminology that you do not understand yet.
You need to know these basic things and the folks here on the Forum can help you.

Most good manuals explain these terms and ALL of them use this nomenclature and jargon as a standard “language” in Handloading.
(This is our language; this is how we speak to each other.)
Many also have a “glossary” in the back to explain what the terms mean.

We all understand you just want it to go bang right now, but you need to understand a minimal amount of this material to avoid loading problems in the least, and harming yourself and or your firearm in the worst.

YouTube is great for just monkey see, monkey do ****.
But for you to be proficient in a safe and productive way in this process you are going to have to “read” the Handloading manual(s) and understand what the terms mean, and how to “apply” them.

As you can see from my example above, different manufactures and companies call these “trapezoidal” shaped projectiles different names or a “combination” of names based on the same basic trapezoidal shape.
Sometimes this can be “regional” as in what part of the country you are in.

Kina like when you are down south asking for directions and everything is either “up the road” or “down the road” (If you know what I mean)

People and companies refer to this trapezoidal shape in various ways, they are ALL correct in reference.

Definition of a Trapezoid

A quadrilateral having only two sides parallel
A plane figure with four sides, only two of which are parallel


Definition of TRUNCATED
1: having the apex replaced by a plane section and especially by one parallel to the base <a truncated cone>
2 a: cut short: CURTAILED <a truncated schedule>
As you can see, Truncated is an expression of what form the trapezoidal shape may be in, “generally” this suggest a shorter overall length to the “cone” but not always.

Some can be shaped more like a traffic safety cone you see in the street, others may appear shorter, more “squat” in nature with the shank section of the bullet taking up more of the bullets weight (Think typical TC shaped 45ACP bullet like the ones below)


The reason this is important to you is the bullets ogive profile, overall bullet length and bullet shank section length have a direct impact on what your final Cartridge Overall Length (C.O.L) will be.

This is why I mentioned COL when I provided you load data and guidelines for loading your lead bullets using the AutoComp

Relax! You will get there, just remember in Handloading, you have to walk a bit before you can go full tilt auto, savvy?

Good Luck
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  #25  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:53 PM
CherokeeT CherokeeT is offline
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"the bullets ogive profile, overall bullet length and bullet shank section length have a direct impact on what your final Cartridge Overall Length (C.O.L) will be"

A safe charge with a long OAL could become unsafe if the same bullet is seated deep. We are just trying to keep you out of trouble.
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