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  #1  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:30 AM
1911FiX 1911FiX is offline
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It suprises me that some people believe in a fair fight




I was talking to some folks at a business convention (that had nothing to do with guns) the other day and somehow the subject of self-defense came up.

It surprises me (but maybe it shouldn't) that some people idealistically and mistakenly believe in maintaining a fair fight even in the case of life-threatening self-defense.

I should qualify beforehand, this discussion did not have anything to do with the prelude to the fight - e.g. how it started, who started it, etc.

Anyway, my detractors' general view was that if someone is beating you with his fists, you should certainly defend yourself but you do so only with your fists, and you don't escalate and pull a knife or a gun (if you had such).

Similarly if someone comes at you with a knife, you use a bat or such but you don't pull a gun.

I get the sense that these folks have never been in a real fight for their lives. Anyway, I didn't spend more than a couple of minutes on the topic before giving up trying to get through to them. But I found it too disturbing and incredulous not to post and get it off my chest.

I think these are the same folks that think we should "shoot to wound" or that we should hunt animals with our bare hands.

Mods - feel free to remove this post if it doesn't add any value and only comes across as a rant.
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  #2  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:41 AM
Kimbercarry25 Kimbercarry25 is offline
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I think a lot of this came about from the way fights often got and get portrayed in popular media. The hero would never use a knife in a fist fight after all.
I agree with your assessment that in all probability the folks you were talking with had never been in a real fight. The whole concept comes down to a mindset, at least in IMHO.
If you are serious about protecting yourself and those you care about, you have to be willing to do what is necessary to do so. If this means bringing a bat to a fistfight, or a gun to a knife fight then so be it. My 2 cents
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  #3  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:43 AM
Horoscope Fish Horoscope Fish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911FiX View Post
... some people idealistically and mistakenly believe in maintaining a fair fight even in the case of life-threatening self-defense.
Getting in a fight, any fight, of any magnitude whatsoever, will correct this.
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  #4  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:48 AM
James&thegiant1911 James&thegiant1911 is offline
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If you use excessive force in a fight where fists are being used then expected to be charged with Manslaughter and possibly murder.
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  #5  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:55 AM
Dr Guido Dr Guido is offline
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I have noted that A LOT of people will actually tell you that they think, when it comes to it, that they would rather allow themselves to be killed than to kill anyone else, even an aggressor.

I suggest you read "On Killing" by General Dave Grossman. It discusses how difficult the military finds it to get recruits to the point that they will kill the enemy.
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  #6  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:06 PM
bjeffv bjeffv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
If you use excessive force in a fight where fists are being used then expected to be charged with Manslaughter and possibly murder.
Depends on the situation. I have seen many cases of a person dying merely from a fist punch to the head. (I work with the medical examiner) If u don't have a reasonable way out or if you suspect the attacker would be relentless, use of deadly force would be justified.

There really is no such thing as an actually fair fight outside of a boxing match. They are delusional to think that if a criminal is losing a fist fight they wouldn't suddenly pull a knife. They are not gonna say "time out, go get your knife so this is fair"
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  #7  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:15 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Excessive force

Quote:
If you use excessive force in a fight where fists are being used then expected to be charged with Manslaughter and possibly murder.
This is such a vague statement that implies such grave consequences, it demands further clarification.

If a person is 280lbs. and is beating a 140lb person to near unconsciousness, the smaller victim may be "in fear for his life" since if he is knocked unconscious the beating may continue and cause his death. If the smaller victim were to pull a gun and shoot and kill the larger fistfighter, it is doubtful he would be charged, as long as he can prove he was in fear for his life. A jury would be hard pressed to disagree noting the size and weight disparity. Anyone can say the smaller victim used excessive force to stop the attack, however it very well may be the justifiable use of deadly force, as described in some state laws. The use of deadly force may vary by state laws.

If two people get into a fistfight, and one person is badly injured, picks up a baseball bat, and warns his opponent he has had enough, yet the attack still continues......he may be in fear for his life, and the use of a bat may save his life. If the aggresssor does not break off the attack, and an injured fighter will not be allowed to concede or surrender, the aggressor may be showing excessive and unnecessary force, and the injured fighter has every right to protect his life with any means available.
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  #8  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:21 PM
hdm25 hdm25 is offline
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To the OP:

People who have no knowledge of something tend to not speak realistically about said something. There's really no need to try and correct them because 95% of them will feel that they know more about the subject than you do and will argue even against fact.
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  #9  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:22 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Speking as someone who has been in a fight or two.

One in particular I recall being attacked by a former semi pro boxer. Mind you he only attacked me with his fists. It only ended by judicious use of a fire axe by myself.
At the trial, the Coast guard ruled in my favor. So to those that think that they should fight fair. I hope that they have adequate insurance policies to take care of their loved ones.
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  #10  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:28 PM
ElToro ElToro is offline
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i think if your getting your self beaten up an escalation of force is not unreasonable. if someone is beating on me, im gonna use a rock, brick, bottle knife or whatever i have including a gun if it means stopping an attack..

God made man, Sam Colt made them equal

Last edited by ElToro; 04-27-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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  #11  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:29 PM
sechott sechott is offline
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The same liberal mentality is the reason for disarming America, the star wars missile defense is an example. If it would work properly America would be almost untouchable in a nuclear war. The liberals think this would be unfair to our enemies.
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  #12  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:30 PM
Dr Guido Dr Guido is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdm25 View Post
To the OP:

People who have no knowledge of something tend to not speak realistically about said something. There's really no need to try and correct them because 95% of them will feel that they know more about the subject than you do and will argue even against fact.
Humorous aside I cannot resist...

Facts are useless. You can prove anything that's even remotely true with facts...Homer Simpson.
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  #13  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:34 PM
Shad Roe Shad Roe is offline
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Fair fight=tactical mistake.
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  #14  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:34 PM
HungrySeagull HungrySeagull is offline
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There are a percentage of People who never was subjected to a fight or a violence during school years and even later. Those are the lucky ones.

The rest of us harness what we have, right then in the time of violence and channel it towards total victory as fast as possible before you take too much damage or even lose the fight or life.

The few are pounded into the dirt while trying to learn how to deal with the "Fight or Flight" emotions and violence that suddenly hit them in the playground for example.

Others are subjected to it in Basic Training and for most, it's a first time being exposed to such personal training. Some will require several applications before they can master it.

I don't believe in a fair fight. If someone is coming for you... you are "It" no one else is going to help you. If I am coming for you (Usually am not that way...) you probably will be standing at the Peter's Gates wondering *** happened?

I avoid such talk in Social Circles, preferring to listen and decide what is good and what is... chest beating garbage.

That gun in the belt holster is a tool, a very serious and powerful double edge sword. Correct use if the time ever comes for you is necessary and Life will never be the same after.
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  #15  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:38 PM
Texas-CO Texas-CO is offline
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By any means necessary, that's how I'll return to my family everyday. If it means using my weapon, I'll use my weapon. The only fair fight is the one where I go home at the end.
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  #16  
Old 04-27-2012, 01:34 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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There is only one rule, in my book. You do what ever it takes to WIN and stay alive. There are no other rules that apply in a fight for your life or others lives.
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  #17  
Old 04-27-2012, 01:50 PM
Dr Guido Dr Guido is offline
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well...there might be one exception. If you are in a battle of wits with a Democrat, is it really fair to use your brain?
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  #18  
Old 04-27-2012, 01:50 PM
shovelstrokeed shovelstrokeed is offline
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Any physical confrontation with me is going to get treated as a threat to my life. I'm old and getting frail. I will do my best to avoid the situation but, once you escalate to physical contact, the next thing you will see is my gun. Continue, and I'm shooting.

In fact, if I estimate that physical contact is imminent, you may see the gun sooner. Display as a deterrent is legal in Florida.

Last edited by shovelstrokeed; 04-27-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Clarification.
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  #19  
Old 04-27-2012, 01:51 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
If you use excessive force in a fight where fists are being used then expected to be charged with Manslaughter and possibly murder.
Disparity of force affects determination of whether force is excessive.

I work with a guy who keeps bragging that he is a 4th degree black belt in a martial art. He also keeps a folding knife in plain view, clipped to a hip pocket in his tactical pants.

We are the same age (me 53, him 52). I am maybe an inch taller and have about 20 pounds on him, so we are of "similar" size.

In the eyes of the law in Arizona, I could use lethal force on this coworker if he attacked me, and I would get away with it most likely, at least as far as not being charged criminally. He made it known to me that he is a highly trained fighter so I would reasonably fear for my life if he attacked me even with just his fists.

I would absolutely not play fair if a man like this attacked me.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:54 PM
Nac4788 Nac4788 is offline
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I think every state should allow drawing of a weapon, be it a knife, bat or firearm to brandish and give the attacker the chance to stop his attack, and if he does not you have every right to use the weapon in any manner you see fit until his attack stops. If he gets a bad knife cut, concussion from the use the bat or a bullet through his cranium that's his poor choice and choices are what life is all about, at least that is what all the successful people have said.

Sadly here in Texas one of my Co-workers was confronted by a group of more then 4 persons with aggression while he was out with his pregnant wife and rushed his wife into his truck got in himself, locked the doors and attempted to get away... one of the persons stood in front of his only option to exit out of the parking lot and he didn't want to run him over, then another went to the drivers window broke it and grabbed his head... He finally decided it was time to draw his .45 and he brandished it and the persons all back away he called the police and they ran... none of them have ever been Identified or convicted of any crime. He has been in and out of the county court house defending his right to be free and his .45 is still in "evidence" and his lawyer said he may just have to settle because the justice system is not letting up after 3 years of court processes.

Idk how this crap happens but I believe in the possession of higher force as to prevent the fight before it happens, I'm not the attacker nor the criminal and so if he is scared or "in fear of his life" too bad go attack some one who doesn't care to take the time to defend themselves, I have a life to live.
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  #21  
Old 04-27-2012, 03:14 PM
Alan Block Alan Block is online now
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Fair fight? not hardly

I take blood thinners which could make even a small wound or even bruise a serious problem. I have no intention of taking a cut or hard blow in order to keep things equal.
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  #22  
Old 04-27-2012, 03:22 PM
Jeff in Colorado Jeff in Colorado is offline
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seems like some of the most vocal espousers of a "fair" fight (that I have read elsewhere) are healthy, strong, youngish macho guys. You know, "fight like a man", "only a chickenturd needs a weapon" etc.
Of course this is due to them having a perceived advantage at hand to hand combat, so "fair" is subjective as we all know by some politicians use of the word.
I have walked away from fights, been called names for it too, but I don't fight at the drop of a hat like some seem to. If I get into a fight, it has to be a real good reason, or no way out, and then I need to end it as quickly as possible.
That's my feeling on it anyway.
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  #23  
Old 04-27-2012, 04:04 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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You should have asked them if they ever were in a real fight... and not just shoving eachother around the playground.

Mike.
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  #24  
Old 04-27-2012, 04:23 PM
Joespapa Joespapa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nac4788 View Post
I think every state should allow drawing of a weapon, be it a knife, bat or firearm to brandish and give the attacker the chance to stop his attack, and if he does not you have every right to use the weapon in any manner you see fit until his attack stops. If he gets a bad knife cut, concussion from the use the bat or a bullet through his cranium that's his poor choice and choices are what life is all about, at least that is what all the successful people have said.

Sadly here in Texas one of my Co-workers was confronted by a group of more then 4 persons with aggression while he was out with his pregnant wife and rushed his wife into his truck got in himself, locked the doors and attempted to get away... one of the persons stood in front of his only option to exit out of the parking lot and he didn't want to run him over, then another went to the drivers window broke it and grabbed his head... He finally decided it was time to draw his .45 and he brandished it and the persons all back away he called the police and they ran... none of them have ever been Identified or convicted of any crime. He has been in and out of the county court house defending his right to be free and his .45 is still in "evidence" and his lawyer said he may just have to settle because the justice system is not letting up after 3 years of court processes.

Idk how this crap happens but I believe in the possession of higher force as to prevent the fight before it happens, I'm not the attacker nor the criminal and so if he is scared or "in fear of his life" too bad go attack some one who doesn't care to take the time to defend themselves, I have a life to live.
My first thought as I read this was why NOT run him down? Then I realize he's armed......those guys should be dead??JMHO
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  #25  
Old 04-27-2012, 05:40 PM
CountryUgly CountryUgly is offline
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I've had two friends killed in fist fights in the past ten years, there is nothing tame or honorable or whatever you want to call it about a 200 lbs man wanting to crush your skull in with his bare hands. Both instances there were no weapons of any kind involved it was just one man beating another to death with his bare hands, and in both instances the person killed was the larger of the two fighting. A wise man once said "My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals".
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