Florida vs. Zimmerman discussion thread

[john45]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

I'm pretty sure the New Black Panther party putting a bounty on his head was pretty good motivation to go into hiding.

I don't remember the exact quote, but "Evil will triumph when good men stand and do nothing."

His neighborhood had a recent spat of break-ins, and he saw a suspicious person who he did not recognize walking behind houses in the rain.

I highly suspect that if Martin was polite to Mr. Zimmerman, and explained who he was, and why he was there (not that he had any legal obligation to) he would not have died that night. I also suspect that if Zimmerman was more clear to Martin about who he was, and why he was following him, this could've been avoided as well. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there was a first confrontation between the end of the first 911 call, and the fatal confrontation, with words that were exchanged (probably something along the lines of "Who are you, and why are you here?", followed up with a "eff you, you nosey a-hole!" or something along those lines from Martin.

Martin died about 100 yards from his house. Martin could've made it back to the house he was staying at had he just ran, as it was quite obvious that he had lost him at the end of the first 911 call (Zimmerman states as such). As a fat, out of shape guy, I could cover that distance in a dead run in less than a minute, significantly less than the amount of time between the first 911 call, and the second 911 call with the audible gun shot.

I highly suspect that this is a case of "When keeping it real goes wrong" more than anything, and unless there is a video of the entire altercation, I don't see how a Murder 2 charge will stick. Both men contributed to the situation, and both could've diffused it, however, neither did, and it wound up with Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating his head on the concrete, with Zimmerman fatally shooting Martin to get him to stop.

Had either man been the bigger man and had just talked politely to each other, this never would've happened.

Since Martin had family living there I am sure he knew who Zimmerman was and that there was a neighborhood watch group. It is not like he was a stranger visiting this community, he also probably knew of the break ins and as a result would want to stay vigilant and be willing to explain who he was and what he was doing there.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by john45

Since Martin had family living there I am sure he knew who Zimmerman was and that there was a neighborhood watch group. It is not like he was a stranger visiting this community, he also probably knew of the break ins and as a result would want to stay vigilant and be willing to explain who he was and what he was doing there.

I'm pretty sure this whole thing could've been avoided if some politeness was offered by either party.

"Kill 'em with kindness" is my first motto. "Don't confuse my kindness for weakness" is my second motto, if the first tactic does not work.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by Alter-ego

I'm not the only one viewing George as the agressor, my only agenda is to see the other side of this and hope no one else follows Georges example. you can t just go around stalking people then claiming self defense when you have provoked a response. I sure hope moderators see the need for other view points than everyone thinking that Trayvon was the bad guy.

Please show me where it is legal to assault someone because you "felt you were stalked" AS THAT PERSON WAS LEAVING... last I checked... that was not legal... and with the evidence at hand, thats what happened... leaving Trayvon as the criminal in this case.

Mike.

[dsk]

There was nothing illegal about Zimmerman following Martin, or even confronting him, only that it flew against common sense when 911 told him they did not need him to do that (spoken in a forceful tone that clearly meant DON'T do that). The part none of us know is what happened next. Did Zimmerman get into an argument with Martin? Did he turn around and walk back to his vehicle without having had direct verbal contact with Martin? Did Martin indeed go after Zimmerman and attack him from behind? The answer to these questions will make all the difference as to whether or not the murder 2 charges will stick.

[joedel]

Originally Posted by dsk

There was nothing illegal about Zimmerman following Martin, or even confronting him, only that it flew against common sense when 911 told him they did not need him to do that (spoken in a forceful tone that clearly meant DON'T do that). The part none of us know is what happened next. Did Zimmerman get into an argument with Martin? Did he turn around and walk back to his vehicle without having had direct verbal contact with Martin? Did Martin indeed go after Zimmerman and attack him from behind? The answer to these questions will make all the difference as to whether or not the murder 2 charges will stick.

I agree 100% that how the Jury answers those questions is the crux of the case.

But is there direct evidence that Zimmerman continued following after the Dispatcher advised him not to? Everyone seems to assume this but I listened to the entire 911 tape and nothing in it indicates that he continued to follow Martin. His statement to the police indicates that he ceased pursuit and was returning to his car when the face to face confrontation began.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by joedel

I agree 100% that how the Jury answers those questions is the crux of the case.

But is there direct evidence that Zimmerman continued following after the Dispatcher advised him not to? Everyone seems to assume this but I listened to the entire 911 tape and nothing in it indicates that he continued to follow Martin. His statement to the police indicates that he ceased pursuit and was returning to his car when the face to face confrontation began.

Thats what conclusion I came to as well.

[joedel]

Some of the discussion here seems to confirm what I posted early in this thread - that seating an impartial jury in this case will be difficult to impossible and regardless of what evidence is or isn't presented at trial, it will be extremely difficult for Zimmerman's lawyer to win an outright acquittal.

[dsk]

It looks like the prosecution is going after him specifically because he continued to follow Martin after being told not to, thus setting up the confrontation:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin?lite

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by dsk

It looks like the prosecution is going after him specifically because he continued to follow Martin after being told not to, thus setting up the confrontation:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin?lite

Would the defense just have to prove that Zimmerman was attacked while "leaving"?

Mike.

[joedel]

Originally Posted by dsk

It looks like the prosecution is going after him specifically because he continued to follow Martin after being told not to, thus setting up the confrontation:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin?lite

Yes it looks like the prosecution affidavit is based almost solely on the hearsay (though probably admissible) testimony of Martin's girlfriend who he was on the phone with for some portion of the event. Extremely thin to base a 2nd Degree Murder charge on. Particularly given that the girlfriend's statement was taken quitre some time after the event. Needless to say, the girlfriend will have to testify at trial and be subject to cross-examination.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by randian

You do realize that a jury can't answer those questions?

Even if it was mutual combat, once the other combatant escalates to using deadly force (which slamming somebody's head against the ground most assuredly is) you may respond in kind.

What Martin believed is irrelevant. He is not on trial.

Again, the allegation that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the ground is based upon Zimmerman's own statements. There is conflicting eyewitness testimony as to what happened. Hopefully more evidence will become publicly released to clear it up.

[joedel]

Originally Posted by mikeg1005

Would the defense just have to prove that Zimmerman was attacked while "leaving"?

Mike.

Yes, by a preponderance of evidence, Zimmerman would need to show that he was not the aggressor and was returning to his vehicle when Martin initiated the physical confrontation.

I believe the fact that the altercation and shooting took place fairly close to Zimmerman's vehicle supports this. If Zimmerman exited the vehicle and aggressively pursued Martin you would think the ultimate confrontation and shooting would not have been near the vehicle.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

Again, the allegation that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the ground is based upon Zimmerman's own statements. There is conflicting eyewitness testimony as to what happened. Hopefully more evidence will become publicly released to clear it up.

Can you show me the proof? (haven't seen it yet, not calling you out)

Mike.

[1toughdog]

"We look forward to presenting the evidence at that time," he said. "... We will make all arguments in the courtroom, and that's where it should be." I'm pleased with Zimmerman's, attorneys' (O'Mara) approach at trying to end the circus and simply deal with the facts in court.
.

[zdragon52]

Originally Posted by joedel

I believe the fact that the altercation and shooting took place fairly close to Zimmerman's vehicle supports this. If Zimmerman exited the vehicle and aggressively pursued Martin you would think the ultimate confrontation and shooting would not have been near the vehicle.

excellent point.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Had either man been the bigger man and had just talked politely to each other, this never would've happened.

We're talking about a 17 year old kid here. I can't speak for others, but I was hotheaded and really, really stupid at that age. Zimmerman is 28 and was carrying a concealed weapon. He should be held to a greater degree of accountability for his actions given his age, experience, and firearms license, although not necessarily in court but in public opinion. He's the responsible party here IMHO, whether Martin threw the first punch or not. Again, that's certainly not a legal basis for a 2nd degree murder charge, just my opinion.

[PolymerMan]

Originally Posted by joedel

I agree 100% that how the Jury answers those questions is the crux of the case.

But is there direct evidence that Zimmerman continued following after the Dispatcher advised him not to? Everyone seems to assume this but I listened to the entire 911 tape and nothing in it indicates that he continued to follow Martin. His statement to the police indicates that he ceased pursuit and was returning to his car when the face to face confrontation began.

Correct, that is what the Zimmerman family explained. In fact, the Zimmerman camp claims he was never pursuing Martin physically, but got out of the truck to walk to the front of the townhome building to get a house and street number.

Based on that claim, and based on how some of these communities are laid out I believe that to be a very plausible explanation. Keep in mind that Zimmerman's statements were preserved by the police immediately after the incident. I am sure there is a recorded interview, so that it is very unlikely he is shaping his testimony based on public information leaked. My bet his story will never change from the moment he was in the interview room to the day he is sworn in to testify.

The pictures of the crime scene show that the homicide occurred in the back of the townhomes where there is a common green area with a walkway running down the center, like an alley that runs in a limited common element area.

Zimmerman's camp (his father) stated that it was that fact... that Trayvon was walking in that back yard alley area, rather than on the sidewalk next to the street, in front of the townhouses (where the street numbers are visible) that made it unusual and suspicious. Because of where Martin was last seen, the only way to get an address was to get out of the truck and walk to the front of the townhomes to get an exact house number and accompanying street address. This is plausible, but then again, why didn't he just drive the truck around to the front of the townhouse row.

Many years ago, about 15 years ago I lived in a town home community that had a large common element green area behind our townhomes. If I saw someone that wasn't either an employee of the management company, or not a resident of an immediate unit walking behind my unit, I would consider it very suspicious.

[6285108]

Originally Posted by dsk

It looks like the prosecution is going after him specifically because he continued to follow Martin after being told not to, thus setting up the confrontation:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin?lite

.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by mikeg1005

Can you show me the proof? (haven't seen it yet, not calling you out)

Mike.

http://www.insightoutnews.org/readin...artin-killing/

Not testimony, but differing accounts from eyewitnesses. Granted, this is just based on media coverage and not official court proceedings.

[PolymerMan]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

Again, the allegation that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the ground is based upon Zimmerman's own statements. There is conflicting eyewitness testimony as to what happened. Hopefully more evidence will become publicly released to clear it up.

I think that is a pretty well established fact. Do you think for one moment that Zimmerman broke his own nose like Trayvon's mother asserted and that the police falsified the police report that his face was bloodied and that he had a gash on the back of his head?

Do you think that someone smeared Zimmerman's blood on the sidewalk?

I think there is no doubt there is irrefutable facts that Martin slugged Zimmerman.

The reality is, that the type of evidence that I expected to see from the prosecutor in their probable cause affidavit would have been some forensic evidence like that Martin's hoodie was torn, like in Zimmerman grabbing the kid to hold him... some sort of physical forensic evidence that Zimmerman actually escalated the surveillance of the youth into a physical altercation. None was provided and this leads me to conclude that the prosecution's case is just balderdash... afterall, President Obama made it clear which camp he was siding with.

Frankly this prosecutor is doing nothing more than placating the mob. That's all. She has produced no new evidence then what has not been leaked in the past 45 days.

[HT77]

Originally Posted by dsk

It looks like the prosecution is going after him specifically because he continued to follow Martin after being told not to, thus setting up the confrontation:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin?lite

If that is really true, this is one of the weakest murder cases I have ever seen or heard of. A man at his residence legally following another whose purpose and identity is in question, is criminally assaulted and then in legitimate fear for his life uses deadly force and is charged with murder? That is outrageous and she needs to be reprimanded for prosecutorial misconduct at some point. They would not charge this in most foreign countries whose justice systems we normally laugh at.

[6285108]

.

[HT77]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

We're talking about a 17 year old kid here. I can't speak for others, but I was hotheaded and really, really stupid at that age. Zimmerman is 28 and was carrying a concealed weapon. He should be held to a greater degree of accountability for his actions given his age, experience, and firearms license, although not necessarily in court but in public opinion. He's the responsible party here IMHO, whether Martin threw the first punch or not. Again, that's certainly not a legal basis for a 2nd degree murder charge, just my opinion.

A 17 year old who was probably larger on average than most men his age going into military service. You have to completely throw out all reason and the rule of law to paint Zimmerman as the responsible party or to hold him to some unbelievable standard. Following a suspicious person at your residence is not imprudent or unreasonable behavior. It was well warranted in this situation taking into account the activity that takes place there on a regular basis. The key act was not Zimmerman following him. It was the physical assault by Martin.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

Again, the allegation that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the ground is based upon Zimmerman's own statements. There is conflicting eyewitness testimony as to what happened. Hopefully more evidence will become publicly released to clear it up.

... and his broken nose, and the contusions on his head, pictured in the video taken the night of the event.

We know from the phone call that "someone" was screaming for help, and that one eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, who was screaming for help. The second eyewitness saw the altercation, but couldn't clearly tell who was on top of who. During a police interview, the witness was given a multiple choice, and said the red shirted guy was on the bottom. He changed his story after talking with his mom, and her lawyer.

What is the most simple explanation? Zimmerman saw a suspicious person, called the police, followed him, and then was jumped?

Or...

Zimmerman calls the police, runs down Martin, and then shoots him in cold blood, with the full knowledge that the police are minutes away?

I know that criminals are often caught because they are stupid, but Zimmerman is either the dumbest criminal of all time by giving the police a heads up to his murder scene, or he's Dr. No who has meticulously planned the entire event to supposedly get his gun on, up to and including knowing where all of the witnesses will be during the entire event, and having most of them either be unable to see the event, and those who did either not see it clearly, or see him as the one being attacked.

[HT77]

Originally Posted by PolymerMan

Frankly this prosecutor is doing nothing more than placating the mob.

Pretty much covers it. If she runs for state wide office down the road or gets an appointment from Obama and Holder at the DOJ if he wins a second term then her other motivations will be obvious.