Florida vs. Zimmerman discussion thread

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by dsk

I agree, the minute George decided to keep following Trayvon instead of listening to the 911 operator he started digging his own hole. Police were on the way and he should have backed off at that point, but didn't. The lesson learned here is, as long as you're not in immediate danger call the police and let them do their job.

Exactly. Though the dispatcher's suggestion had no legally binding authority, it's a matter of common sense. As the instructor said over and over again during my CWL class, having a CWL "does not make you a freelance police officer."

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by mikeg1005

Aaron45, how did Zimmerman instigate the original fight, do you have some sort of evidence that he made first physical contact with the kid?[/B]

Mike.

The evidence suggests that he was following Martin. He then exited his vehicle to accost him, and even stated as much to the dispatcher. He set the events in motion.

[randian]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

And deadly force is only justifiable in Florida for enumerated forcible felonies, such as aggravated assault, armed robbery, rape, attempted murder, etc.

That's not so. Those enumerated crimes are what give you presumptive protection under SYG. Other crimes, like ordinary battery (getting your head slammed into the ground?), do not give you a presumptive defense, but rather the burden is on the defense to show reasonable fear of injury or death.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by Lordofbarbeque

Aaron, that was an interesting last paragraph. Would it not help Zimmerman's case to try to show that he had broken off initial contact, and if so, would that argument work in stating that final confrontation was new engagement of two involved?

Yes, that would certainly help his case if he is able to show that the initial contact that he started by getting out of his car to pursue Martin came to an end when he allegedly lost sight of him, and that a new confrontation began that was instigated by Martin.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by randian

That's not so. Those enumerated crimes are what give you presumptive protection under SYG. Other crimes, like ordinary battery (getting your head slammed into the ground?), do not give you a presumptive defense, but rather the burden is on the defense to show reasonable fear of injury or death.

I should have worded that differently. Yes, it's not just limited to enumerated felonies. Also, beyond SYG, regular self defense will still be raised at trial even if a judge finds that SYG doesn't apply. But yes, the burden is still on the shooter to show reasonable fear, not on the State to show that the decedent had clean hands, which was my point.

[SRJim]

Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911

The only real problem for us in the future, will be GZ will get off on stand your ground, and then they will appeal the law so it can not happen again.

But it has nothing to do with SYG. No one but the media and special interests have been talking about SYG. It's a self defense case. Zimmerman never "stood his ground" about anything. There's a link above to someone (prosecutor maybe) explaining why it's not also.

That's why including SYG as part of this discussion bothers me so much. It's playing into the media and special interests that are trying to exploit this case to further there agenda against the SYG law.

There's also been other informaiton break in the last few days that hasn't really been pushed in the media. Zimmerman contacted the Special Prosecutor as well as the media also.

I also heard a claim that he was actually walking his dog (a Rot or Pit), and not in his car? Who knows, we may find out he's really Evil's son.

[SRJim]

I don't believe a Judge will decide what law is used for his defense. I'm pretty sure that's up to, the Defense. And at this point in the circus, they'll use whatever they feel they have the best chance of succeeding in his defense, regardless of what may happen later. That's their job.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

The evidence suggests that he was following Martin. He then exited his vehicle to accost him, and even stated as much to the dispatcher. He set the events in motion.

"to accost him" does not mean he did it, and from what I gather, Trayvon attacked him on the way BACK to his car.... He was an idiot for following him, but that never gave Trayvon the right attack him.

From what you just wrote, the evidence shows that Trayvon made the first contact... ATTACKING Zimmerman. Therefore Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

Mike.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by mikeg1005

"to accost him" does not mean he did it, and from what I gather, Trayvon attacked him on the way BACK to his car.... He was an idiot for following him, but that never gave Trayvon the right attack him.

From what you just wrote, the evidence shows that Trayvon made the first contact... ATTACKING Zimmerman. Therefore Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

Mike.

Martin allegedly attacked him, according to the defendant, and that's what his lawyers are going to argue. How do we know it wasn't mutual combat? How do we know Zimmerman didn't provoke the attack? How do we know Martin didn't believe he was acting in self defense when he allegedly punched Zimmerman? All unanswered questions.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by SRJim

I don't believe a Judge will decide what law is used for his defense. I'm pretty sure that's up to, the Defense. And at this point in the circus, they'll use whatever they feel they have the best chance of succeeding in his defense, regardless of what may happen later. That's their job.

Well, the judge will decide whether SYG applies or not, as per a FL Supreme Court opinion. The judge will also instruct the jury as to the law and the elements the State must show to meet their burden. The next major question is going to involve the venue selection. Highly unlikely they will try it in Seminole County (can't remember which judicial circuit that is).

[garcia]

We needed a topic like this. Thank you forum staff for it.
Over visiting the forum tends to hurt my wallet. :-(

[Aaron45]

Breaking news: Zimmerman had his initial appearance today (a hearing in front of the judge to determine probable cause to support his arrest/detention) and the State's Probable Cause Affidavit they have filed in support apparently alleges that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Story below:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-show-accident

They also skipped a bond hearing and set his next court date for May 29. And the judge granted his lawyer's request to seal the official court record from the public. Given the international media circus surrounding this case, including bounties and death threats and whatnot, jail is probably the safest place he can be right now.

[PASTORDW]

Originally Posted by dsk

I agree, the minute George decided to keep following Trayvon instead of listening to the 911 operator he started digging his own hole. Police were on the way and he should have backed off at that point, but didn't. The lesson learned here is, as long as you're not in immediate danger call the police and let them do their job.

As much as I tend to believe that Trayvon Martin did in fact strike blows to Zimmerman and the fact that I have seen men beat to death by fists only, making me feel Zimmerman may have had to shoot Martin or get his brains smashed out on the concrete, I agree with dsk.

I pray if this went down as Zimmerman says it did that he goes free. I do not want to see this man crucified just because of some opportunists hovering over this incident like vultures hovering over a dying carcass. But, there again in retrospect it is my opinion Zimmerman should have let LE do their job. Don't get me wrong, if he saw a person attacking, raping, etc. someone and knew there was not enough time to save someone before LE could arrive that would be different. I am mighty afraid this is not going to go good for Zimmerman simply because of the racial factor being applied.

Sincerely,

PastorDW

[PolymerMan]

Originally Posted by SRJim

I don't believe a Judge will decide what law is used for his defense. I'm pretty sure that's up to, the Defense. And at this point in the circus, they'll use whatever they feel they have the best chance of succeeding in his defense, regardless of what may happen later. That's their job.

The most recent Florida Supreme Court rulings have indeed indicated that a circuit court judge does indeed have the power to shut down any further proceeding in a mini-trial hearing concerning the affirmative defense outlined in the statutes. The defense is expected to motion for that hearing possibly within the next 6 months. If the case does get dismissed, the prosecutor of course can appeal that decision.

But I agree with your previous posts, that SYG is not what this case is about, nor is the Florida codification of the common law is needed for Zimmerman to prevail.

In my opinion, the previous common laws at large concerning self-defense would have been applicable if Zimmerman's set of facts are correct. That he was pinned to the ground after being punched and after having his head slammed on the concrete, plus the fact it has been alluded that Martin attempted to reach for his gun which became exposed in the struggle. In addition, Robert Zimmerman (his father, former Virginia Judge) stated that Martin told George Zimmerman when he was pinned to the ground that he (Zimmerman) was "going to die tonight".

Under that scenario, it would be impossible for Zimmerman to "retreat".

Notwithstanding what I just said, the new law would obviously be used because it entitles the defendant to collect attorney's fees at the end of the day if the SYG defense is upheld. That includes any attempt from the Martin family to sue Zimmerman for a wrongful death. BTW, the HOA would not be immune from a law suit. The irony in all of this.

Assuming Zimmerman's facts are upheld, he had no opportunity to escape, and if Martin gain controlled of the gun, his death would have been imminent.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

Breaking news: Zimmerman had his initial appearance today (a hearing in front of the judge to determine probable cause to support his arrest/detention) and the State's Probable Cause Affidavit they have filed in support apparently alleges that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Story below:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-show-accident

.

Well then Aaron45, I take some of the stuff I said back(Based on lack of evidence)... sounds like Zimmerman could have very well started the fight where Trayvon hit him in fear of his life.

We shall see what sort of "confrontation" actually happened.

My opinion still stands(since day one).... If Zimmerman did truely physically attack the kid, then he should be charged with murder(or some for of killing a person)... you can't start a fight, start losing, kill a person in self defense and come out free of charge, if Zimmerman was simply following him to determine what was going on, and the Martin attacked Zimmerman (while trying to talk to him or while returning to his car) then Zimmerman acted in self defense.

Originally Posted by Alter-ego

But see what you fail to understand is that in the reversal of roles Trayvon was standing his ground against and agressor.
.

What sort of "agressor" was Zimmerman, did he follow him and try to talk to him? Or did he actually do something that Trayvon feared for his life and it was a probably cause for defending yourself? Those are two questions that need to be answered before you can say "Trayvon hit Zimmerman in self defense".

MIke.

[BillD]

Originally Posted by chiefjefe

There are two sides to this story and you and I or anyone else but George and possible witnesses know the real story. The jury will decide which story is true. We are all just speculating now and have no clue.

Oh, that's where you are wrong. Many people have already decided guilt in this event.

[CavCop]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

Breaking news: Zimmerman had his initial appearance today (a hearing in front of the judge to determine probable cause to support his arrest/detention) and the State's Probable Cause Affidavit they have filed in support apparently alleges that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Story below:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-show-accident

They also skipped a bond hearing and set his next court date for May 29. And the judge granted his lawyer's request to seal the official court record from the public. Given the international media circus surrounding this case, including bounties and death threats and whatnot, jail is probably the safest place he can be right now.

I hope to read the PC Affidavit, as if they are saying Zimmerman attacked Slim, they will need more than a hunch to prove that. If they are going off the word of girlfriend's non recoreded, 3 week old statements, that could be biased, misqouted/remembered, and might not even be let into court, they have a heck of a plan... and are not blind or balanced as justice should be.

[PolymerMan]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

Breaking news: Zimmerman had his initial appearance today (a hearing in front of the judge to determine probable cause to support his arrest/detention) and the State's Probable Cause Affidavit they have filed in support apparently alleges that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Story below:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-show-accident

They also skipped a bond hearing and set his next court date for May 29. And the judge granted his lawyer's request to seal the official court record from the public. Given the international media circus surrounding this case, including bounties and death threats and whatnot, jail is probably the safest place he can be right now.

The probable cause is rather weak for 2nd degree murder in my opinion. In it they claim that a girlfriend claims... xyz. That girl's credibility could be raised since she could very well be "shaping" her testimony days and weeks after the facts. The evidence as I understand it is that she was on the phone minutes before there was contact between Martin and Zimmerman. The phone company records are accurate to the second, as well as the 911 calls. The forensic investigation would match the time stamp between the police dispatcher's time stamp and the cell towers log when that call was dropped and make an adjustment. Even if there was a 30 second lapse between the time the call was dropped and the time the two made contact, her testimony would not be the smoking gun evidence since she cannot testify what was said moments before Martin slugged Zimmerman. Furthermore, what I heard is that there was at least a 5 minute lapse between the GF's call getting dropped and the screams heard on the 911 call. Secondly, the prosecutor's claim in their affidavit that the screams heard on the 911 is that of Martin. I find that impossible to believe. But they base that on the parents claiming that is Trayvon screaming. I say that is pure rubbish, as people who know Zimmerman claim it was him, as well as an eye witness, plus Zimmerman's own statement that he yelled before he even knew there was a recording of him yelling. Not to mention the fact, that there were no injuries on Trayvon except one fatal gunshot. To allude the screams on tape were that of Trayvon is just balderdash in my opinion, and it represents the weak evidence the prosecutor is traveling on.

I think this prosecutor is moving this case forward on a scintilla of evidence to satisfy the public demand that an arrest be made; not that I don't blame her since getting this case into the system allows for discovery to be made and testimony to be preserved under oath.

[dsk]

Just this morning Martin's mom said on the Today Show that she believed the shooting was really just an accident, something that spiraled out of control. Hours later she retracted that statement, saying she really meant to say she thinks Zimmerman chased him down and shot him in cold blood. Complete reversals like that only reinforce my opinion that people behind the scenes are pulling the strings and trying to blow this whole thing up as big as possible. The chances of a fair trial, and especially of a fair verdict are getting slimmer by the hour.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...-in-cold-blood

[joedel]

Originally Posted by dsk

I agree, the minute George decided to keep following Trayvon instead of listening to the 911 operator he started digging his own hole. Police were on the way and he should have backed off at that point, but didn't. The lesson learned here is, as long as you're not in immediate danger call the police and let them do their job.

Do we know that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after the 911 Dispatcher told him "We don't need you to do that."? On the 911 tape, after the Dispatcher said that, Zimmerman's response was "OK".

Zimmerman's account seems to be that he ceased following when the Dispatcher advised him to but was then confronted by Martin on the way back to his vehicle.

We also don't know who initiated the physical altercation that lead to, as the witness described, Martin being on top of Zimmerman bashing his (Zimmerman's) head into the pavement. If Martin confronted Zimmerman as Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle and then initiated the altercation and was indeed injuring Zimmerman then would you agree Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force to and the attack?

Some people seem bent on convicting Zimmerman for the mere fact that he left his vehicle and continue observing what he thought to be a suspicious person near his home. That's just not how the basic laws of self defense work. If Martin did in fact initiate the physical altercation and inflict injuries on Zimmerman then Martin was the criminal in this situation, not Zimmerman.

[CavCop]

Martin's mother identified screams heard in the background of a 911 call as her son's. There had been some question as to whether Martin or Zimmerman was the one calling for help.

Thats not Probable cause

Prosecutors also interviewed a friend of Martin's who was talking to him just before the shooting. The affidavit says Martin told the witness he was being followed and was scared.
Thats not probable cause, thats hear say and more an opinion

Martin tried to run home, the affidavit says, but was followed by Zimmerman: "Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin."

Hope they have proof and more than a hunch

The affidavit says that "Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher" who told him to stop, and "continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home."

As long as they can prove that Zimmerman was not trying to return to his truck, and is home

Seems rather weak and not PC needed for an arrest or a trial.

[Jaybee]

I'm pretty sure the New Black Panther party putting a bounty on his head was pretty good motivation to go into hiding.

I don't remember the exact quote, but "Evil will triumph when good men stand and do nothing."

His neighborhood had a recent spat of break-ins, and he saw a suspicious person who he did not recognize walking behind houses in the rain.

I highly suspect that if Martin was polite to Mr. Zimmerman, and explained who he was, and why he was there (not that he had any legal obligation to) he would not have died that night. I also suspect that if Zimmerman was more clear to Martin about who he was, and why he was following him, this could've been avoided as well. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there was a first confrontation between the end of the first 911 call, and the fatal confrontation, with words that were exchanged (probably something along the lines of "Who are you, and why are you here?", followed up with a "eff you, you nosey a-hole!" or something along those lines from Martin.

Martin died about 100 yards from his house. Martin could've made it back to the house he was staying at had he just ran, as it was quite obvious that he had lost him at the end of the first 911 call (Zimmerman states as such). As a fat, out of shape guy, I could cover that distance in a dead run in less than a minute, significantly less than the amount of time between the first 911 call, and the second 911 call with the audible gun shot.

I highly suspect that this is a case of "When keeping it real goes wrong" more than anything, and unless there is a video of the entire altercation, I don't see how a Murder 2 charge will stick. Both men contributed to the situation, and both could've diffused it, however, neither did, and it wound up with Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating his head on the concrete, with Zimmerman fatally shooting Martin to get him to stop.

Had either man been the bigger man and had just talked politely to each other, this never would've happened.

[PolymerMan]

Originally Posted by dsk

Just this morning Martin's mom said on the Today Show that she believed the shooting was really just an accident, something that spiraled out of control. Hours later she retracted that statement, saying she really meant to say she thinks Zimmerman chased him down and shot him in cold blood. Complete reversals like that only reinforce my opinion that people behind the scenes are pulling the strings and trying to blow this whole thing up as big as possible. The chances of a fair trial, and especially of a fair verdict are getting slimmer by the hour.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...-in-cold-blood

Yes, and in the other night, Trayvon's father said that this case also stresses the need to teach children to settle conflicts without getting into physical confrontation. He more or less acknowledge that his child may have thrown the first punch because he was insulted by Zimmerman's surveillance of him.

[Lordofbarbeque]

To the mods, this is a good thread and I appreciate the allowance of it. Several past threads have wandered off subject and got closed.

But if one individual is posting without relevant material to the discussion and appears to be trying to instigate nonrelative issues, can you not just remove the individual or give warning thru PM. Rather than letting one individual ruin the whole thread ( getting it closed ).

And yes, I am talking to you, Alter-ego. Your posts are purely meant to push your agenda. If you want to start a thread supporting your views then please go run with it elsewhere.

JMHO

[randian]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

How do we know it wasn't mutual combat? How do we know Zimmerman didn't provoke the attack? How do we know Martin didn't believe he was acting in self defense when he allegedly punched Zimmerman? All unanswered questions.

You do realize that a jury can't answer those questions?

Even if it was mutual combat, once the other combatant escalates to using deadly force (which slamming somebody's head against the ground most assuredly is) you may respond in kind.

What Martin believed is irrelevant. He is not on trial.