Florida vs. Zimmerman discussion thread

[teefus]

i thought the press conference was a little weird. the spokesperson mentioned 2-3 times that the state of florida does not file charges based on public opinion. i was a little shocked at the 2nd degree murder charges. it seemed to me that, a) they charged zimmerman to avoid a violent reaction and or b) they expect him to be acquitted or plea to a significantly lesser charge.

[joedel]

I too found the prosecutor's press conference to be a bit odd. She should have just issued a written statement to the media that Zimmerman is being charged with 2nd Degree Murder and was in custody. Period. TV cameras do strange things to be people's judgment.

[James&thegiant1911]

Originally Posted by teefus

i thought the press conference was a little weird. the spokesperson mentioned 2-3 times that the state of florida does not file charges based on public opinion. i was a little shocked at the 2nd degree murder charges. it seemed to me that, a) they charged zimmerman to avoid a violent reaction and or b) they expect him to be acquitted or plea to a significantly lesser charge.

the mother said that she was just happy that he was charged, just wanted to hear him say he was sorry. Ok, yeah that is not a mother whose son was just murdered. You can not rewrite the constitution of the United States to meet whatever agenda you are running for the day. Unless they have some earth ground breaking evidence then George should be good. If it is self defense then he should not plead to anything. I think she charged him with that to get a plea for manslaughter. Fear of a life sentence if you take it trial or plead to 5 years on a manslaughter charge.

The only real problem for us in the future, will be GZ will get off on stand your ground, and then they will appeal the law so it can not happen again.

[1toughdog]

Originally Posted by Turner Ashby

CRT2,

If you believe the wheels of justice are evenly weighted for both the prosecution and the defence, then you probably think the games at the carnival are not rigged, and that there really is a tooth fairy and an easter bunny.

I agree; especially with the SP referring to those "..sweet parents..". I prefer SP's to be impartial but while seeking justice it is more important to discover and up-hold the truth. IMHO.

The good news appears to be Mr. O'Mara (although he's stated in the past he has problems with some aspects of Stand your Ground), Zs new attorney; seems to have hit the ground running. The old team seemed a little out of their league.

[HT77]

I don't know if there is any smoking gun type evidence that the prosecution has yet to reveal, but based on everything that has been released thus far, there is nothing to justify the arrest. The physical assault was initiated by Martin, he was attempting to kill or seriously injure Zimmerman and then Zimmerman acted in self defense. But then again that is the exact reason the prosecutor did not use a grand jury. She wants to shift this from innocent until proven guilty to guilty until proven innocent in order to satisfy the street mobs which is scary. Very sad day not only for gun owners but also for any citizen that has to protect himself. Political correctness and this type of black solidarity with street mobs driving the justice system are extremely bad for this country.

[ewetstone]

It may not get passed the judges pre-trial hearing. All he has to do is declare it was a case of "stand your ground". The prosecution can then wash their hands any say we tried.

[M4finny]

We are here to discuss the merits of this case and not "What is the NRA doing to help Zimmerman"? Stay on topic please.

Thank you,

Fin

[Neumann]

Originally Posted by ewetstone

It may not get passed the judges pre-trial hearing. All he has to do is declare it was a case of "stand your ground". The prosecution can then wash their hands any say we tried.

This is a case of self-defense (or not). The "Stand-Your-Ground" provision does not enter into the issue. SYG relates mainly to civil liability.

The state has a high hurdle to prove murder 2 - malicious intent, etc. On the other hand, the defense has a relatively low burden of proof that he reasonably felt that his life was threatened.

Unless there is evidence not revealed at this point, murder 2 seems over the top and unlikely to stand. Unless Zimmerman pleads to a lesser charge and the judge agrees, it's all or nothing for the prosecution. We saw this in the Anthony case, where the prosecution overcharged and the defendent stood her ground. We'll know more after the preliminary hearing, because the prosecution has to lay all its cards on the table under Florida's comprehensive discovery laws.

[CavCop]

Originally Posted by ewetstone

It may not get passed the judges pre-trial hearing. All he has to do is declare it was a case of "stand your ground". The prosecution can then wash their hands any say we tried.

I think everything is a show on the side of the state and feds.

Zimmerman just needs to say self defense and nothing more. The state must prove their case.

The Murder charge might just be a way to violate rights and please the black community and anti-gun people by making an arrest that will not hold up in a court of law (based on what facts have been released thus far).

Based on FL law, the arrest of Zimmerman might be an illegal arrest (based on how I read their laws).

The state must show probable cause that Zimmermans intent was murder and it was not self defense to stop an assault. Zimmermans lawyer can just say Zimmerman was trying to stop the assault, had no intent to kill, and fired one shot in fear of his life. No need for Zimmerman to take the stand, and the state must prove beyong a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin or cause serious harm to Martin. Majority of what the news has reported, a good lawyer will make sure never gets brought up or mentioned by the State.

IMHO this has become a cluster and neither Trayvon or Zimmerman will get justice as our laws are set up to do. Only the anti's will get the attention they want/need at the cost of a dead teen and the arrest of a Hispanic male that they want so badly to be white.

In the end, it is the tax payers and the working class that will suffer the most, along with Zimmerman.

[BDA45]

Originally Posted by Neumann

The state has a high hurdle to prove murder 2 - malicious intent, etc. On the other hand, the defense has a relatively low burden of proof that he reasonably felt that his life was threatened.

There may be precedent enough for a judge, based upon state evidence, to rule that a jury should decide on "reasonable" and "necessary". Putting this case before a jury would make most anyone in Zimmerman's shoes consider a plea.

[teefus]

Originally Posted by 1toughdog

I agree; especially with the SP referring to those "..sweet parents..". I prefer SP's to be impartial but while seeking justice it is more important to discover and up-hold the truth.

forgot about that statement. i agree that was odd and over-stated.

[edj0527]

This will most likely be my only post on the subject because we just don't know the evidence that brought them to this conclusion. I just find the whole thing as "funny" or "Staged" with a hidden agenda just under the surface.

The comments that the Special Prosecutor made last night were out of place and out of character for someone impartial and seeking only the truth as some of you have mentioned. The other thing that sticks out in my mind as funny, as she came on to announce their findings and issue the "Issue Capias" leveling the charges and warrant for arrest, Zimmerman had already turned himself in, In Jacksonville, prior to the Press conference.

So had she not only talked to the Family but also to Zimmerman himself? the timing and the comments just seem to be off to me, it has an amazing feel of "please the masses" and an appearance of Justice that was being called for. The people wanted an arrest they got one.

The rest we will just have to wait and see and wade through the many slanted news reports that will follow.

[HT77]

Originally Posted by BDA45

Putting this case before a jury would make most anyone in Zimmerman's shoes consider a plea.

Based on the evidence we know I don't see that unless the jury is stacked with Martin supporters.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by edj0527

The comments that the Special Prosecutor made last night were out of place and out of character for someone impartial and seeking only the truth as some of you have mentioned. .

Yes it did... she came off with a very "we are seeking justice for Trayvon and plan to make sure he get what EVERYONE wants" tone, instead of "we have cause to believe this was a murder case and want to seek the truth"

Originally Posted by HT77

Based on the evidence we know I don't see that unless the jury is stacked with Martin supporters.

+1... and trust me, that is the last thing that will happen... I would not be surprised if they did a location change, I highly doubt you'd be able find someone in that area that doesn't have an opinion on the case(regardless of which side they support)

MIke.

[zdragon52]

Originally Posted by CavCop

I think everything is a show on the side of the state and feds.

Zimmerman just needs to say self defense and nothing more. The state must prove their case.

The Murder charge might just be a way to violate rights and please the black community and anti-gun people by making an arrest that will not hold up in a court of law (based on what facts have been released thus far).

Based on FL law, the arrest of Zimmerman might be an illegal arrest (based on how I read their laws).

The state must show probable cause that Zimmermans intent was murder and it was not self defense to stop an assault. Zimmermans lawyer can just say Zimmerman was trying to stop the assault, had no intent to kill, and fired one shot in fear of his life. No need for Zimmerman to take the stand, and the state must prove beyong a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman wanted to kill Slim or cause serious harm to Slim. Majority of what the news has reported, a good lawyer will make sure never gets brought up or mentioned by the State.

IMHO this has become a cluster and neither Trayvon or Zimmerman will get justice as our laws are set up to do. Only the anti's will get the attention they want/need at the cost of a dead teen and the arrest of a Hispanic male that they want so badly to be white.

In the end, it is the tax payers and the working class that will suffer the most, along with Zimmerman.

^very well said.

[PolymerMan]

I want to thank the staff for opening this venue for us to discuss this. As a Florida resident, legally armed and involved with HOA's, this case has hit a core of the reason why I am armed.

In fact, today, in my mailbox, I received a memo calling for a meeting concerning crime in the area. I kid you not.

Originally Posted by edj0527

This will most likely be my only post on the subject because we just don't know the evidence that brought them to this conclusion. I just find the whole thing as "funny" or "Staged" with a hidden agenda just under the surface.

The comments that the Special Prosecutor made last night were out of place and out of character for someone impartial and seeking only the truth as some of you have mentioned. The other thing that sticks out in my mind as funny, as she came on to announce their findings and issue the "Issue Capias" leveling the charges and warrant for arrest, Zimmerman had already turned himself in, In Jacksonville, prior to the Press conference.

So had she not only talked to the Family but also to Zimmerman himself? the timing and the comments just seem to be off to me, it has an amazing feel of "please the masses" and an appearance of Justice that was being called for. The people wanted an arrest they got one.

The rest we will just have to wait and see and wade through the many slanted news reports that will follow.

It's fair to say that the charges that were brought were done so for pure political reasons. Primarily to defuse growing tension. Call it grand standing if you will. In a way it was proper for that effect, although I believe she doesn't have a snowflake's chance in hell to get a 2nd degree murder conviction. It was also proper as well because it will also demonstrate that "SYG" is not a carte blanche to shoot anyone and merely claim self defense. This will demonstrate to the anti-gunners and nay-sayers that a state even with a strong "SYG" law will still have their case scrutinized and in order to invoke "SYG" defense, all the bits and pieces must add up.

To me SYG is a doctrine to be used only when there is a robber with a gun pointed at you or your family members. To me this law is needed for those clear and demonstrable cases where an criminal assailant clearly has a weapon and is clearly involved in a forcible felony.

That is why this case is so convoluted. Martin was not clearly committing any forcible felony when the encounter begain, nor was he clearly armed.

Originally when this case began, I believed it was a completely wrongful shooting by some gun-ho crime watch volunteer. I believed that before I became aware that in fact, Zimmerman did receive injuries to the head, and apparently was unable to escape further blows while on the ground. Once that was disclosed, I believed that the self defense was an appropriate affirmative defense.

The sticky issue still is the disparity of force used that gets this guy some criminal conviction due to "imperfect self defense" although the State of Florida does not recognize that doctrine of "imperfect self defense". In Florida, it's black and white, it's self defense or not self defense.

If it goes to a jury (which I doubt it will) the jury could decide that getting punched and receiving a black eye does not warrant the use of deadly force. They would have to believe that Zimmerman needed to fight off the kid with his fists and punches. I don't believe a reasonable jury will come to that decision, but then again, this is Florida and anything is possible.

That is the only possible way I see this guy getting a conviction. I really doubt that that Prosecutor Cory has any "unknown evidence" that warrants a 2nd degree charge.

I believe the evidence will show that a teenager made the wrong youthful indiscretion to beat up a legally armed man, that resulted in his own death. In the end, Trayvon Martin, is the one that contributed to his death, plain and simple. The common laws at large for the past century in the state of Florida would also have protected Zimmerman without the need to invoke the the newer state statutes.

[Horoscope Fish]

Originally Posted by CavCop

Zimmerman just needs to say self defense and nothing more. The state must prove their case.

Not so. Claiming self-defense brings with it a certain burden of proof.

[James&thegiant1911]

Originally Posted by Horoscope Fish

Not so. Claiming self-defense brings with it a certain burden of proof.

no not really, he has reasonable doubt especially for 2nd degree murder the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove that her client was not committing a felony in the process of he being shot. During the commission of a felony offense then what ever force is deemed necessary to stop the commission of the crime is appropriate for those actions.

Like has been said it appears to be a staged event to appease the masses

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by Neumann

This is a case of self-defense (or not). The "Stand-Your-Ground" provision does not enter into the issue. SYG relates mainly to civil liability.

The state has a high hurdle to prove murder 2 - malicious intent, etc. On the other hand, the defense has a relatively low burden of proof that he reasonably felt that his life was threatened.

Unless there is evidence not revealed at this point, murder 2 seems over the top and unlikely to stand. Unless Zimmerman pleads to a lesser charge and the judge agrees, it's all or nothing for the prosecution. We saw this in the Anthony case, where the prosecution overcharged and the defendent stood her ground. We'll know more after the preliminary hearing, because the prosecution has to lay all its cards on the table under Florida's comprehensive discovery laws.

SYG certainly applies in criminal cases. The first hurdle for the prosecution, as others have pointed out, is to overcome SYG immunity. The Florida Supreme Court has stated that immunity based upon SYG is a question for the judge to decide; if the judge finds that it is applicable, the case ends there. Hopefully this will be a test for the law, which I think is bad as it stands now, and the judge will determine it does not grant immunity when the defendant/shooter instigates the confrontation with the victim/decedent/shootee and sets the ball rolling; under no such circumstances should it apply in that kind of a scenario. The core of Florida's SYG is that it removes the duty to retreat while outside of the home; if you're in a place where you're legally allowed to be and you get attacked, you may defend yourself if you have reasonable fear of death/bodily harm, etc. But there is a world of difference between 1) not being required by law to retreat when attacked, which makes sense, and 2) being legally permitted to provoke or instigate a confrontation and still enjoy self-defense immunity. Hopefully a court will distinguish these two vastly different concepts, as many seem to think they are one and the same.

If Zimmerman's lawyers successfully argue that the initial contact that Zimmerman instigated when he exited his vehicle came to an end when he lost sight of Martin, and that Martin then attacked him and started a new confrontation, the law could conceivably apply and give him immunity. And if that happens, you can bet that the FL legislature will be going back to the drawing board to amend the law thanks to the public outcry such an outcome will create.

Take note that this is all based on what's been publicly released thus far; the special prosecutor could have evidence that has yet to be made public.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911

no not really, he has reasonable doubt especially for 2nd degree murder the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove that her client was not committing a felony in the process of he being shot. During the commission of a felony offense then what ever force is deemed necessary to stop the commission of the crime is appropriate for those actions.

Like has been said it appears to be a staged event to appease the masses

Trayvon Martin is not the special prosecutor's client; the State of Florida is. The State is under no such burden to show that he wasn't committing a felony. That's a total misconception of how SYG works. And deadly force is only justifiable in Florida for enumerated forcible felonies, such as aggravated assault, armed robbery, rape, attempted murder, etc. Trayvon didn't have a weapon, so although attacking Zimmerman may be a felony if unprovoked, it wouldn't be an aggravated battery. Grand Larceny and Purchase of Cannabis are felonies in Florida but would under no circumstances create a justification for deadly force.

The shooter still has the burden to show reasonable fear. What amounts to "reasonable fear," and whether being engaged in mutual combat can sufficiently justify the escalation of that combat to the level of deadly force by the introduction of a gun, are going to be critical issues in this case. Right now, the evidence released to the public suggests that Zimmerman introduced a deadly weapon into a mutual fight that he initially provoked. Unless he is able to argue that he was essentially beaten within an inch of his life, it's going to be tough for him to show "reasonable fear" under these circumstances.

[dsk]

Originally Posted by Alter-ego

I’m pretty sure all of this could have been avoided had George listened to and complied with the 911 operator.....

I agree, the minute George decided to keep following Trayvon instead of listening to the 911 operator he started digging his own hole. Police were on the way and he should have backed off at that point, but didn't. The lesson learned here is, as long as you're not in immediate danger call the police and let them do their job.

[Horoscope Fish]

Originally Posted by Aaron45

Trayvon Martin is not the special prosecutor's client; the State of Florida is. The State is under no such burden to show that he wasn't committing a felony. That's a total misconception of how SYG works. And deadly force is only justifiable in enumerated forcible felonies, such as aggravated assault, robbery, rape, attempted murder, etc. Grand Larceny and Purchase of Cannabis are felonies in Florida but would under no circumstances create a justification for deadly force.

The shooter still has the burden to show reasonable fear. What amounts to "reasonable fear," and whether being engaged in mutual combat can sufficiently justify the escalation of that combat to the level of deadly force by the introduction of a gun, are going to be critical issues in this case. Right now, the evidence released to the public suggests that Zimmerman introduced a deadly weapon into a mutual fight that he originally instigated. It's going to be tough to show "reasonable fear" under those circumstances.

Thank you; you explained that far more succinctly than I could have.

[Aaron45]

Originally Posted by Lordofbarbeque

Like I said earlier it was odd, but the FL attorney stated it was a self defense issue.

Could the Florida guys just not know issues well enough because of newness of SYG?

Which makes me think could the SYG law be so new to FL that the defense has never been used in a trial yet?

No, it's been used quite a bit, actually. Almost all criminal attorneys I know have dealt with it on one side or the other. It's only in the spotlight because of the media attention surrounding this case.

[mikeg1005]

Originally Posted by dsk

I agree, the minute George decided to keep following Trayvon instead of listening to the 911 operator he started digging his own hole. Police were on the way and he should have backed off at that point, but didn't. The lesson learned here is, as long as you're not in immediate danger call the police and let them do their job.

That really doesn't matter now... sure we can Monday morning quarterback the crap out of this story, but the fact is that NOW... as it stands.. Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

Until they have evidence that Zimmerman's injuries happened because Zimmerman made the first attack, it will be hard to say even though you were attacked and had your head bashed into the ground, you still murdered the kid.

Aaron45, how did Zimmerman instigate the original fight, do you have some sort of evidence that he made first physical contact with the kid?

Mike.

[Lordofbarbeque]

Aaron, that was an interesting last paragraph. Would it not help Zimmerman's case to try to show that he had broken off initial contact, and if so, would that argument work in stating that final confrontation was new engagement of two involved?

I say this, because otherwise they say Zimmerman's actions created incident and it is harder argument for defense to fight.