Winchester USA JHP (whitebox hollow point)

[Dieselman]

What is your opinion on this round? I know I have read statements on here that some people carry this round as their CCW choice because it is cheap and therefore easier to practice with the round they carry.

How does this hollow point compare with UMC hollow point or with the more popular bullets such as Gold Dot or Ranger Talon or HST? I can not find any published data of gelatin tests or penetration test with this bullet.

[samson7x]

I actually used this round in an informal gel test that can be found on youtube. Ill see if I can dig it up, but it performed well IMO. No core separation and good penetration. I've also taken a deer with it (actually caught it on film and it can be found on youtube as well.) I don't carry it personally and there are better choices out there, but it is definitely not a bad round IMO.

Edit: here is the gel test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmnRr2rd5Is

Real life performance on small doe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai9G0LZhyXk

[DeltaKilo]

This round generally suffers from shallow penetration and fragmentation issues. It'll work, but then, any bullet will work. There are definitely better options for SD situations though.

[Black Jack]

Most of what I have heard about it is good. The major drawback is that it is a non-bonded round, which means a higher possibility of separation and some issues when penetrating barriers.

Samson7x,
Thanks for the link to your ballistics test. I have had a lot of trouble finding ballistics test information for it because it is not a premium SD round and it seems like nobody wants to test it. But, I have seen a few posts over the years about it being used for deer, like you did, and it always seems to perform well.

DeltaKilo,
First that I have heard of penetration issues. Most of the concerns that I have heard about this round is that it is not bonded. Is this from first, or second hand experience? Do you have any links to tests for it? I have looked several times YouTube, forums and Google) for ballistics testing of the WWB .45 ACP JHP rounds without any luck.

My interest in this round is that it is much more affordable and readily available than the premium rounds. That is why I have it stocked up in .45 ACP. My stock in 9mm, on the other hand, is all Speer Gold Dot.

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by Black Jack

Most of what I have heard about it is good. The major drawback is that it is a non-bonded round, which means a higher possibility of separation and some issues when penetrating barriers.

Samson7x,
Thanks for the link to your ballistics test. I have had a lot of trouble finding ballistics test information for it because it is not a premium SD round and it seems like nobody wants to test it. But, I have seen a few posts over the years about it being used for deer, like you did, and it always seems to perform well.

DeltaKilo,
First that I have heard of penetration issues. Most of the concerns that I have heard about this round is that it is not bonded. Is this from first, or second hand experience? Do you have any links to tests for it? I have looked several times YouTube, forums and Google) for ballistics testing of the WWB .45 ACP JHP rounds without any luck.

My interest in this round is that it is much more affordable and readily available than the premium rounds. That is why I have it stocked up in .45 ACP. My stock in 9mm, on the other hand, is all Speer Gold Dot.

My experience is from my own testing in 10% calibrated gel. Average penetration is 10-12". Expansion is typically around .65", compared to .70+ for the premium loads.

Comparatively, HST and Ranger non-bonded loads average 14" of penetration.

Speer Gold Dot averages 15-16".

[DeltaKilo]

I should note that when it comes to rounds like this, most generic hollowpoints all behave practically the same. They work, but they have drawbacks. They are not recommended because they do not perform as well as other options.

[Black Jack]

DeltaKilo,
Thanks! That's good to know.

[Runt7680]

Winchester Ranger T's can be ordered for $32 per 50 + shipping.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winche...es-230gr-ra45t
Search the web and you can find Gold Dot's for about the same price for 50.

[Bullseye1911]

I strictly use Speer Gold Dot in 9mm .40 and .45acp for personal protection

But I will admit, I do have a few boxes of WWB in the safe, if I ever ran out and could`nt get anything else I guess it will have to do

DeltaKilo, with your tests, what kind of expansion did you get with the 230 Jhp GD`s ?

I have seen many other tests from others, just wondering what you got

Thanks

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by Bullseye1911

I strictly use Speer Gold Dot in 9mm .40 and .45acp for personal protection

But I will admit, I do have a few boxes of WWB in the safe, if I ever ran out and could`nt get anything else I guess it will have to do

DeltaKilo, with your tests, what kind of expansion did you get with the 230 Jhp GD`s ?

I have seen many other tests from others, just wondering what you got

Thanks

In my own PERSONAL Tests, gold dots averaged at about .68" Diameter (as measured in the proper fashion, taking an average of widest and narrowest points).

The overall size is smaller than the non-bonded options, but that is expected with bonded loads.

[Kokopelli]

I shot a lot of those during the last ammo shortage. A few boxes per week would show up at a distant Walmart and that was virtually all I could find. It ran pretty good at the range, as opposed to Speer Gold-Dot, and for some time I kept it loaded in my 5" pistols.. I wouldn't hesitate to carry it, if I needed to.. Ron

[SMSBruce]

IMO, it's better to shoot a lot with poor ammo that shoot a little with good ammo.
I know lots of people that have expensive ammo for carry that they have not shot because it's too expensive. IMO you need to shoot at least 500 rounds of carry ammo to decide if it works well in your gun, so if that's all you can afford and it works well for you use it. If they don't drop shoot em again!

[smolck]

You'll find a lot of bad on youtube with this round when used with 4 layers of denim. I dunno, most people I would have to shoot probably don't wear 4 pairs of jeans or 4 jean jackets. And I have NEVER been attacked by jello. So I don't know. Personally, I like Cor Bon or Federal HST.

[rrobertson]

Originally Posted by SMSBruce

IMO, it's better to shoot a lot with poor ammo that shoot a little with good ammo.
I know lots of people that have expensive ammo for carry that they have not shot because it's too expensive. IMO you need to shoot at least 500 rounds of carry ammo to decide if it works well in your gun, so if that's all you can afford and it works well for you use it. If they don't drop shoot em again!

I can, have and will continue to pick up NEW 50rd boxs of Speer GDHP 45acp 230gr #53966 for a couple bucks a box less then what the prices listed are for the WWB JHP and the average of the price I have found the WWB JHP online. So my "expensive" ammo is cheaper then the "poor" ammo, atleast for me. I do agree that people should fire rounds of their carry ammo thru their firearm before carrying that ammo. However (keeping the economy, whats left of the middle class in mind and the lack of value for the US Dollar) a few magazines fired thru the firearm of the carry ammo with no malfunctions IMO is decent enough as long as you have first fired numerous FMJ rounds thru it with no malfunctions. Again its all to each their own when it comes down to it, and if theyre comfortable with doing what they do thats good for them.

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by SMSBruce

IMO, it's better to shoot a lot with poor ammo that shoot a little with good ammo.
I know lots of people that have expensive ammo for carry that they have not shot because it's too expensive. IMO you need to shoot at least 500 rounds of carry ammo to decide if it works well in your gun, so if that's all you can afford and it works well for you use it. If they don't drop shoot em again!

There's nothing that 500 rounds will tell you that 50 won't. That said, there's every reason to use premium ammo for self defense. There's also every reason to do what you need to do to make sure you can run with the ammo effectively and accurately.

Cheaping out on training, kit, or anything of that nature only hurts you in the long run.

[Bullseye1911]

Originally Posted by DeltaKilo

In my own PERSONAL Tests, gold dots averaged at about .68" Diameter (as measured in the proper fashion, taking an average of widest and narrowest points).

The overall size is smaller than the non-bonded options, but that is expected with bonded loads.

That`ll work

Most others I have seen are pretty close to what you got, they were averaging at .70
some were .75 with denim and gel

Thanks

[invssgt]

I carried the USA load for duty until 2008, when I went to an outfit that issued glocks. At one point the range officer tried to shove a box of Ranger's at me and I pushed them right back. The pistol I was carrying was zeroed at 50 yards with the USA load, grouped it quite well and fed it slick as glass.. Made no sense (to me at least) to swap loads over supposed differences which no Coroner could identify at autopsy.

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by invssgt

I carried the USA load for duty until 2008, when I went to an outfit that issued glocks. At one point the range officer tried to shove a box of Ranger's at me and I pushed them right back. The pistol I was carrying was zeroed at 50 yards with the USA load, grouped it quite well and fed it slick as glass.. Made no sense (to me at least) to swap loads over supposed differences which no Coroner could identify at autopsy.

Actually, by and large, based on the characteristics of the bullet, you can tell in some cases the differences. Mostly it has to do with behavior against bone, and fragmentation: Winchester USA FMH loads fragment fairly often, Ranger doesn't.

[Mujahideen]

fragmentation makes a less lethal round?

[invssgt]

Originally Posted by DeltaKilo

Actually, by and large, based on the characteristics of the bullet, you can tell in some cases the differences. Mostly it has to do with behavior against bone, and fragmentation: Winchester USA FMH loads fragment fairly often, Ranger doesn't.

Angels dancing on the head of a pin. Introduce me to the medical examiner who will look at the hole made by either of them, and notice any difference.

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by Mujahideen

fragmentation makes a less lethal round?

In rifles, no, because enough energy is being imparted by the round that the fragmentation event itself causes a larger point in the wound channel, so it's a fairly catastrophic event.

In handguns, however, yes, it does. Fragmentation in a handgun round is more like an asteroid breaking up in the atmosphere of the earth: Chunks break off and nearly immediately lose momentum and do very little damage. The loss of mass to the main body of the projectile also causes an upset and dramatic drop in momentum and energy, reducing penetration and causing less overall tissue damage.

The difference here is that handguns are relatively low energy, therefore you have a breakup of the bullet rather than a catastrophic event, and thus you suffer reduced penetration and less damage due to smaller wound channels that are shallower and far less likely to cause significant trauma and tissue disruption.

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by invssgt

Angels dancing on the head of a pin. Introduce me to the medical examiner who will look at the hole made by either of them, and notice any difference.

Dr. Vincent Di Maio, a leading expert on pathology, has stated many times that looking at the wounds, differentiations can be made.

[invssgt]

Guess I'm old school on these things, DK. You make a good hit with either of those loads and you're going to get a good result. Neither of them will make up for missing the centerline of the body by three inches.

The last ballistician of note, I worked with on a case, was Fackler. For every Di Maio there are 50 old Quincys who will not state for the record whether a handgun wound was made by ball or JHP.

[Mujahideen]

I remember during one autopsy on Investigation Discovery channel the ME pulled the bullet out of the victim and said it was aluminum! With this kind of stupidity I'm surprised that they even have a job. Usually the "detectives" miss many obvious clues laid right in front of the camera such as makes of cars, guns, thinking pasta sauce is blood etc. wasting valuable time and lab resources.

[invssgt]

Originally Posted by Mujahideen

I remember during one autopsy on Investigation Discovery channel the ME pulled the bullet out of the victim and said it was aluminum! With this kind of stupidity I'm surprised that they even have a job. Usually the "detectives" miss many obvious clues laid right in front of the camera such as makes of cars, guns, thinking pasta sauce is blood etc. wasting valuable time and lab resources.

I agree with the general spirit of your statement here. Anybody who would waste good pasta sauce should be flogged.

Some original Silvertips had an aluminum-alloy jacket and I think the Aquila IQ probably used an aluminum alloy bullet.