Your Thoughts on Mag Capacity For LE Use

[Rightside]

Been throwing around the idea for a few years to switch from my issued sidearm to a 1911. One of the negatives I see is mag capacity. I'm sure it's been discussed here before but I didn't locate anything. What is everyone's thoughts. I know the arguments of "make you shots count" and those sort of things will come up. But, it seems all the shootings I watch on video or read about include alot of shots being fired. I dunno, maybe it is something I just need to get over. I know 10rd mags are available but I'm not sure my dept. would allow them since they look odd. Maybe in my pouches. I know, sounds crazy. Would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

[DocJ]

I am of the opinion, or belief, that double stack magazines have given rise to the "spray-and-pray" method of defense and gunfights. If you practice shot placement and using your shots wisely, like you should, it shouldn't be an issue. However, you do things under stress you wouldn't normally. And, yes, always carry extra mags. I would encourage ten rounders as the back-ups, but never in the primary weapon.

[M21guy]

I'm hoping to get hired here in my home town when I finish up the academy. I can use a 1911 there and plan on it if I do get hired eventually. Being a small town without violent crime, I really don't see the overwelming need to carry an arsonal of ammo on me. Maybe three, 8rnd mags and an extra 10rnd mag in my cargo. That is 35 rounds with administrativly loading and topping off my mag in the pistol. That is just 5 less rounds if I did the same with three mags in my XD. 5 rounds I'm certain I could live without.

Even over in the big town, officer involved shootings, in the past have resulted in 7 or less rounds fired, by the officer. It isn't likely I'd ever really need all my spare 8rnd mags, but I think maybe that 10rnd mag in my cargo is probably still a little extra insurance I might want.

[AKERSCQB]

This is stats from 2005. Got them from one of the popular pistol magazines with regard to 120+ officer involved shootings taking place in New York city. Of those shootings it averaged out to about 18 rounds per incident. There for if you carry (2) 8 round magazines with a full gun you would have 25 rounds. Seems like plenty to me. This is my daily carry set up, with a SHTF bag in the car.

[ontarget]

I began my career with a pistol that held 15+1, with two spare mags on the belt, for a total of 46. I've been carrying a 1911 for over 10 years now. 8+1 in the gun plus 4 spare 8 round mags gives me 41. I just spend a lot of time practicing reloading.

[FrontRangeFuzz]

I've gone through six different duty weapons, ranging in capacity from 10 rounds to 17. My current duty gun is a M&P45, which I absolutely love. It only holds 10 rounds. Despite my affection for that gun in it's current iteration, I have always had a strong affinity for the 1911 platform, and I now work for an agency that allows them. Much like Rightside, I've been weighing the pros and cons, and other than the initial cash outlay, I've decided that the pros far outweigh the cons. It really is one of the best fighting guns ever developed - for those who know how to run it effectively.

Yes, the mag capacity suffers. However, I'd only be losing 2 rounds compared to the M&P, and it's much easier to shoot a 1911 accurately under stress thanks to the inherently excellent trigger. Being able to perform fast reloads is also a very valuable skill, one which I practice quite often. I'll never be as fast as someone like Travis Tomasie for example(who is scary fast), but I can rock and roll pretty well.

Make your shots count so that you can fight your way to your rifle and/or the "oh s**t" bag. One in the gun and three on the belt (safariland triple pouch) is enough for that purpose, IMO.

[nwhpfan]

I've carried a 1911 off and on over the years and I really enjoy the pistol but I do believe capacity matters, just like shot placement and a slough of other factors. For sake of argument lets say you have 17+1 and 18 total deadly threats. If you can get them all with 1 head shot you've serviced all your problems with one magazine; at one time. Now if you shoot a 1911 you'll have to reload at least once to do the same so consider what is going to happen during that 1.5-2 seconds you're reloading? Now .25 splits is pretty easy so it's fair to say as many as 8 rounds could come back at your during a time you weren't putting rounds the other way. For sake of argument say your injured and either arm is incapacitated; difficult and timely to reload without your other hand. Now suppose your buddy is hurt and you pick up him in a fireman's carry; shooting and running at the same time. Another scenario where running dry is bad. So there are many examples and arguments and it's been going on forever and probably will never end. I gave some extreme examples to make my point but it's just my opinion. I will say this and I know it's true; just because an average gunfight is a few rounds from a few feet; yours will be many rounds and from much farther. And just because you are in a small sleepy town where nothing ever happens; it will because the most wicked and violent fight imaginable can happen anywhere at any time.

[Rightside]

Originally Posted by M21guy

I'm hoping to get hired here in my home town when I finish up the academy. I can use a 1911 there and plan on it if I do get hired eventually. Being a small town without violent crime, I really don't see the overwelming need to carry an arsonal of ammo on me. Maybe three, 8rnd mags and an extra 10rnd mag in my cargo. That is 35 rounds with administrativly loading and topping off my mag in the pistol. That is just 5 less rounds if I did the same with three mags in my XD. 5 rounds I'm certain I could live without.

Even over in the big town, officer involved shootings, in the past have resulted in 7 or less rounds fired, by the officer. It isn't likely I'd ever really need all my spare 8rnd mags, but I think maybe that 10rnd mag in my cargo is probably still a little extra insurance I might want.

Please do not enter police work with this thought. Hopefully when your hired, the academy and your FTO will remove this thought from your brain. I'm not trying to call you out, but working in a small town brings it's own challanges. I'm not saying to wrap your body with ammo, but never think violence isn't around the corner. I appreciate your thoughts and comparison to your XD.

I haven't seen a three mag pouch or seen a double (quad) pouch in a long time. I need to do some looking around. 10 rounders for the belt isn't a bad idea either. I now have 14 in the sidearm and 2 13 mags, making it 40 total. I won't count a mag in my duty bag as readily available. So 9 in a 1911 and 16 on the belt is 25. Maybe I could sew a pocket inside my vest carrier to hold a mag.

[DocJ]

Thank you, nwhpfan, for that graphic nightmare visual. Very stimulating.

Granted, I have to agree with the mindset of being prepared for the worst. However, if I'm also more accurate under pressure with my 1911, that means less wasted rounds and less wasted time. Practice doing reloads is all I can say. But if you have difficulty hitting a target with a Glock (as I do), your preferred 1911 will handle the situation much more efficiently. Even with the reload time allotment.

[mark2734]

I walked a footbeat in Watts carrying a Smith 4506 (8+1 DA/SA .45) and three spare mags. Never felt the need for more mags but at the same time I never walked with just my partner and me. It was almost always a team of 4 officers and 2 in a chase car.

[wc145]

I work in a very rural area and, as far as LE goes, my job is about as safe as they come. However, it only takes a moment for that to change. Because I work alone in the willywags and I'm out of my vehicle on foot a good bit of the time and the closest back up is a minimum of 15-20 minutes IF they can find exactly where I'm at, the subject of magazine capacity is been an issue in the back of my mind for some time. So, even though I love my 1911s and have carried one on duty for years, I have recently purchased a FNP-45 Tactical that I've been evaluating and I've pretty well decided to make the switch from 1911 to the FNP for duty carry. Same frame geometry as the 1911, condition 1 capable, red dot ready, 15+1 capacity, and it weighs less loaded WITH a Trijicon RMR on it than my Springfield. I kind of feel a little guilty about it but I think that this gun will better suit my duty needs. All is not lost, though, as I'll continue to compete with 1911s and carry one off duty.

[HT77]

I think the bigger issue is how proficient you are in switching magazines in the midst of a shootout. Having 13+1 capacity in a G21 is comforting but an 8 or 9 round capacity for a 1911 is not a huge handicap if you know how to handle the gun.

[AKERSCQB]

Agree with HT77. You can't miss fast enough to win.

[Fazer386]

Originally Posted by mark2734

I walked a footbeat in Watts carrying a Smith 4506 (8+1 DA/SA .45) and three spare mags. Never felt the need for more mags but at the same time I never walked with just my partner and me. It was almost always a team of 4 officers and 2 in a chase car.

This was my first semi-auto carry gun and set-up. I worked alone in remote areas and never felt out gunned.

Magazine capacity isn't as important to me as a reload source. A high-cap magazine that fails on the second shot is no better than a _# round magazine. You need to have fresh magazine ready.

A good training program promotes round accountability and less "spray-n-pray".

[Highgear]

Originally Posted by AKERSCQB

This is stats from 2005. Got them from one of the popular pistol magazines with regard to 120+ officer involved shootings taking place in New York city. Of those shootings it averaged out to about 18 rounds per incident. There for if you carry (2) 8 round magazines with a full gun you would have 25 rounds. Seems like plenty to me. This is my daily carry set up, with a SHTF bag in the car.

One thing NYPD does very well is keep stats of their shootings, and has since the start.

I've read the average shots fired per officer per incident (Pre semi-auto) was 3.6 IIRC.

Post semi-auto rose to 6.9 almost double. (not to disagree with above info, it may have been a different time frame for the sample data, and is shots per officer, not per incident, and there is the issue of different magazine capacities.)

The point is, through interviews they learned teo distinct trends. One was a trend for officers to fire one shot, the other was for officers to empty their gun. In the days of the revolver many officers reported standing there clicking empty cylinders before realizing to reload.

Remember just because a bad guy is hit does not mean he is incapacitated immediately. How many rounds can you fire before the bad guy reacts and stops the attack? Is 3-5 seconds reasonable? Can you empty a 17 round mag that fast if your life depended on it?

The point is don't call it spray and pray, you are not the one in that situation.

As for carrying a 1911, I use five 8 round mags. I train to be conscious of mag changes and practice them. Have a partner load mags with various number of rounds, then do a course shooting a moving. Learn to recognize slide lock and reload without hesitation or looking. Also train with full mags and do tactical reloads after several rounds have been fired.

Good luck!

[stovlar]

when is the last time you emptied a 8rd mag, plus I assume you will carry a mag pouch as well.

[AKERSCQB]

The article did not break down average officer / B.G. shooting just total per incident. It went further to provide % of hits at different yards and % of hits with regard to AD and animal involved shootings which both had the highest at 60%. Not sure how many rounds the officer was responsible for. However I think either set of numbers still puts a 1911 with two mags over the number needed on average.

[AKERSCQB]

I agree with Highgear. As a FI I run guys through drills like this. Also add a snap cap into the mix to include malfunction drills. IDPA has been the best training to increase my reloading skills and clearing malfunction drills.

[M21guy]

Originally Posted by DocJ

Thank you, nwhpfan, for that graphic nightmare visual. Very stimulating.

Granted, I have to agree with the mindset of being prepared for the worst. However, if I'm also more accurate under pressure with my 1911, that means less wasted rounds and less wasted time. Practice doing reloads is all I can say. But if you have difficulty hitting a target with a Glock (as I do), your preferred 1911 will handle the situation much more efficiently. Even with the reload time allotment.

I really hate the Glock, but I might be able to squeak out top-gun with one in my academy class. It's all about practice, and I'm getting plenty. I'm like you, I do better with my 1911. However, while that may be, I take the time to become proficient with other weapon systems in the event I need to pick one up and use it.

As for how many shots I can get off in a situation with the Gen 4 Glock 17 I have to use, I have an answer. Targets were out 25yards in our lane, It was no light except for red and blues flashing, and I used a Harry flashlight hold. When my target appeared and I drew firing all of my 17+1 rounds, reloaded and fired 3 more before the target stopped 9 feet in front of me. It wasn't for score, so I aimed head. I got all but 3 in the head, missing 2 barely and 1 in the neck. Most of my shots were mouth and nose. Not bad, but I'm more accurate with the 1911. That I might have not missed any shooting clean, but I'm not sure I could get as many off. However, 45acp vs 9mm does have a better history of stopping a threat. It's one half dozen the other. What the Glock has going for it, is speed, combat accuracy is good, and it carries a good amount of ammo.

[Odinkar 105]

I just started carring my 1911 last week. I have an 8rd in the gun, two 8rd in my mag pouch and two 10rd in it as well. The mag pouch in an A.E. Nelson quad. That with my "buddy bullet" gaves me one less round then the G22 I use to have.

[Jim Watson]

All things being equal (which they seldom are) I want more rounds in the gun.
A reload takes time, even under easy conditions like IDPA with an open top pouch.
A flapped snapped pouch takes longer, a flapped Velcroed horizontal pouch even longer from what I have seen. (Don't want one myself.)

Not to mention the risk of a fumbled or completely blown reload.
Not to mention the risk of the gun not picking up the top round off a new magazine. I think first round failures are the most common in otherwise functional guns.

A well tested high capacity gun/magazine makes the most sense to me. Especially when you can have it with no penalty in weight and little in bulk with the various plastic guns.

[Highgear]

I use a Bladetech 4 mag open top carrier. I will eventually pick up some 10 round mags for it, but only have 8's right now. Everything is a trade off. Bigger bullet = less capacity. Whatever you select make sure you practice Ad Nauseum so the operation and reloading of said weapon are second nature. You owe it to yourself, your family, your fellow officers, and your community.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about:

I'm a firearms instructor. I've seen officers (usually from other agencies so I can't correct the problem) have malfunctions on the range, stop, look at it, fiddle with it, then raise their hand to tell someone that his gun broke. In real life he would be dead!

In a SWAT training session, we made entry to a house using simunition. This stuff is notorious for FTF. I entered a room with hostage taker moving laterally across room while another operator entered behind me moving the opposite direction. I fired one round at the bad guy and had a FTF. Bad guy is shooting at me. I cleared the malfunction without stopping movment, or looking at the gun, and returned fire. All within the time it takes to take two to three steps. End result, bad guy covered in blue paint, me paint free. When it was done I hadn't even realized what had happened. I recognized the problem subconsiously, and remedied it while staying in the fight. You need to train to that level of proficiency.

[richpetrone]

I own many 1911's, and prefer them, but the LE agency I joined only allowed Glocks, and they provided a choice of 9mm, .40, or.45acp. I chose the Glock 21 since I like the .45acp. The Glock 21 is a double stack, so I never felt like magazine capacity was a problem.

If I had been allowed to purchase a weapon for duty use, I would have used one of my STI 2011 guns, and most likely in .40S&W caliber. The 180gr JHP round is a good cartridge made by many mfg's. A flush fit mag (126mm) holds 14 rounds plus one up the spout, and you could always carry the longer 140mm mags that hold 17 rounds as back up. The polymer frame of the STI 2011 is also a bit lighter, which is a plus on long shifts. The actual receiver and feed ramp is steel, and they also have frames with light rails, if desired.

[Haydukelives]

Hey M21, who is your Chief RO right now?


Imagine the cartel is unloading a truck of heroin and illegals somewhere, on your shift tonight, and you find this suspicious activity.

This is a VERY possible scenario for Darien (small town ) USA.

I shoot the 1911s much better than anything else. I'm not really fond of the extra weight, nor really fond of going to the STI 2011 platforms with more weight. Worse comes to worse I try out some of the under-shirt suspender/suspension kits. (Yeah, old guy talk. )

[ggammell]

One quick point...

You never want to die due to lack of ammo. I'll leave it at that.

That's a quote I read recently but don't remember the citation.