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  #1  
Old 01-08-2012, 05:48 PM
SOA1911 SOA1911 is offline
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Ruined batch of .45 ACP with WST?




Yesterday, I tried a new load for my 1911 .45 ACPs, and I found that my Ed Brown loved 4.7 g of WST using a Rim Rock 200 g LSWC with a C.O.L. of 1.250. This load was more accurate than all of my other target loads. So, today I loaded another 75 rds (short on time), but I had a brain fart. I metered 5.2 g of WST. Then, I realized my mistake: this load is probably way too hot and over the maximum pressured allowed by a .45 ACP case. What do you guys think? I am leaning on just discarding these rounds. Or do a try to shoot a few--but through a $700-$800 Colt and not a +$2,000 gun--and check the cases for signs of over pressure?
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  #2  
Old 01-08-2012, 05:57 PM
Hmebuildr Hmebuildr is offline
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Max load is 5.1 so I would attempt to pull the bullets

Hodgdon 45acp load data
200 GR. CAST LSWC
Winchester WST .451"
1.225"COL
4.4Starting 830 15,400 PSI
5.1Max 910 19,900 PSI
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  #3  
Old 01-08-2012, 06:11 PM
Joe40 Joe40 is offline
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How accurate is your powder measure/scale set up? The load at 5.2 is not that much over max. Can you chrono a couple of the rounds to see what you have?
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  #4  
Old 01-08-2012, 06:51 PM
Alland Alland is offline
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And your length is .025" longer than the data, so I would think it would be safe unless your bullet has an extremely long nose that would leave less volume in the case.
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  #5  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:01 PM
SOA1911 SOA1911 is offline
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I use a Hornady powder pistol micrometer, and it is extremely accurate--dead on every drop. And, I do not have a chrono. But, the bullet is not unusually long either. Since my C.O.L. is .025" longer, I should be okay, but I may just play it safe and pull the bullets.
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  #6  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:03 PM
RickRope RickRope is offline
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Load up a few at 5gr. And a few more at 5.1gr. If all is well the 5.2's will probably be fine. I've used a lot of them at 5.2grs.

Or of course just pull them apart it's not that many.

Last edited by RickRope; 01-08-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:10 PM
SOA1911 SOA1911 is offline
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RickRope, that is a very good idea. Thanks.
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  #8  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:10 PM
Alland Alland is offline
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It certainly can't hurt to pull them, but I doubt that you are beyond +P pressures.
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  #9  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:14 PM
idahoron idahoron is offline
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Send them to me I will pull the bullets and reload them and keep them. Or you can get a kinetic bullet puller and do it your self. Ron
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  #10  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:20 PM
icecold icecold is offline
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id also load a few working up and see how things progress.if things are good at 5.1 then i'd shoot the 5.2's i think that you are fine but it doesn't hurt to be safe

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  #11  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:26 PM
SOA1911 SOA1911 is offline
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Alland, by the way, what is the pressure of a +P .45 ACP? Is it much higher than 20,000 psi?
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  #12  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:35 PM
RickRope RickRope is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOA1911 View Post
Alland, by the way, what is the pressure of a +P .45 ACP? Is it much higher than 20,000 psi?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

The SAAMI pressure limit for the .45 ACP is set at 21,000*psi (140*MPa), piezo pressure,[8] while the SAAMI pressure limit for the .45 ACP +P is set at 23,000*psi (160*MPa), piezo pressure.
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  #13  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:49 PM
SOA1911 SOA1911 is offline
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Thanks RickRope.
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  #14  
Old 01-08-2012, 09:59 PM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOA1911 View Post
Yesterday, I tried a new load for my 1911 .45 ACPs, and I found that my Ed Brown loved 4.7 g of WST using a Rim Rock 200 g LSWC with a C.O.L. of 1.250. This load was more accurate than all of my other target loads. So, today I loaded another 75 rds (short on time), but I had a brain fart. I metered 5.2 g of WST. Then, I realized my mistake: this load is probably way too hot and over the maximum pressured allowed by a .45 ACP case. What do you guys think? I am leaning on just discarding these rounds. Or do a try to shoot a few--but through a $700-$800 Colt and not a +$2,000 gun--and check the cases for signs of over pressure?
I found some interesting data..
The Hodgdon WST 200gr. LSWC data was developed in CUP

The 45ACP SAAMI limits in CUP are the following in pressure limit
Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) 18,000
Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM) 18,600
Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) 19,200

What I find interesting is, the Hodgdon data exceeds even the Sample Mean pressure with a 19,900 CUP reading with 5.1grs. of WST and the 200ghr. LSWC in their testing?
They do load a bit shorter than your 1.250” COL (Hodgdon 1.225” COL) but this is not some “extreme” reduction from your 1.250” COL
I find it unusual that Hodgdon would release data over the SAAMI MAP pressure limit as this is the general rule for them.

In addition, if you notice, all the other Hodgdon data developed using the rest of their powder choices for the 200gr.LSWC all stay BELOW the SAAMI (MAP) pressure limit of 18,000 CUP

I looked and found WST being loaded to as high as 5.7grs. under a Hornady 200gr. LSWC generating 21,000 PSI (standard pressure MAP in PSI) in this data developing 948 fps velocities.
I also see maximum pressure (21,000PSI) being developed with charge weights at 5.3grs. = 931fps and 5.2grs.= 933fps with various “brands” 200gr. LSWC bullets.

I’m not trying to say that the CUP/PSI pressure data can be interchanged as it cannot.

But it does give a picture of what some developers saw as maximum pressure with a 200gr. bullet and using the WST regardless of scale or measuring protocol used.

“Every gun is its own gun, every load is its own load”

In your case, the 5.2grs. loading most likely won’t be detrimental to you are your handgun(s)
(If I did test fire these loads, I would not do it in an alloy pistol first with this fast a powder)

This is where the chronograph could be helpful, if you were seeing velocities in excess of ~925fps it would be a good indicator you could be well past the pressure limit with these loadings in your gun(s)

Just remember, while velocity may increase in a linear fashion as charge weights are incrementally increased we know pressure does not.
At some point, the pressure curve behavior will become unstable and spike.
Good Luck
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  #15  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:41 AM
FN in MT FN in MT is offline
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Know anyone shooting a Smith M-25 or 625? The revolver can digest those with zero issues.

FN in MT
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2012, 09:59 AM
bullet45acp bullet45acp is offline
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FN in MT read my mind...

Send them to me, I have 625 and a modern 1917

Or use this as an excuse to go buy a 625, you wont be sorry!

JAG

Last edited by bullet45acp; 01-09-2012 at 02:54 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2012, 10:41 AM
Shmackey Shmackey is offline
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I'd shoot 'em through the non-Brown gun and have fun.
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  #18  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:51 PM
SOA1911 SOA1911 is offline
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TheGerk, I appreciate your research into this matter, and I found your response to be very helpful indeed. If I shoot these in one of my 1911s, I will not do so in one of my semi-custom or custom guns. I would probably choose an all carbon steel Colt. Also, as a few members have suggested, I could shoot them through a S&W 625. Thank you.
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  #19  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:37 PM
Capt. Methane Capt. Methane is offline
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I'm pretty conservative when it comes to this stuff...guess I'm getting old.

Running those rounds through a revolver is a good idea-if you are going to shoot them. I'm not going to throw any rocks at The Gerk's information but I bought a bullet puller just because I didn't like the way some loads I built with Hodgdon's online data felt when I shot them-they were supposed to be within limits but they didn't feel right and there was some minor cratering of the primers on the few rounds I tested...yeah, I was under the limits on the powder charge but but it didn't feel right and there was evidence of an over pressure condition on the primers.

You may be within the limits of acceptable error range for production, but what happens if there is an error in your powder throwing equipment that goes high of your already hot load?

Seriously, do you want to take a risk on your right hand and even the most clapped out old Colt you have? You know that Colt isn't making Colts the way they used to-a clapped out carbon steel oldie is likely better than a new stainless one!

It's only 75 rounds my man...that's about 15 minutes of your life on any good progressive machine-I'd say to back up and start over, it's not worth the risk.
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Last edited by Capt. Methane; 01-09-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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  #20  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:39 PM
drail drail is offline
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I don't personally believe that 5.2 WST is going to be a problem for any gun but since you indicated that you loaded it on a Dillon you might want to burn it in S&W 25 or 625. I have seen too many people get into trouble using those things.

Last edited by drail; 01-09-2012 at 07:42 PM.
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  #21  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:50 PM
Capt. Methane Capt. Methane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drail View Post
I don't personally believe that 5.2 WST is going to be a problem for any gun but since you indicated that you loaded it on a Dillon you might want to burn it in S&W 25 or 625. I have seen too many people get into trouble using those things.
Interesting comment, would you care to elaborate?
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  #22  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:53 PM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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UPDATE!
With some input feedback from Hmebuildr who posted #2
I discovered the data I have in my Hodgdon manual for the 200gr. LSWC load with WST is expressed in CUP.
While the data on the web site is expressed in PSI?
(ALL the other number match and are the same)
One of these is the wrong pressure expression.

I suspect a misprint error in the manual, but……

I have emailed Hodgdon for an explanation and clarification and will post it if responded to.
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  #23  
Old 01-09-2012, 08:07 PM
SOA1911 SOA1911 is offline
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TheGerk, maybe Hodgon will provide some clarification on this matter. And, Capt. Methane, your points are well taken--its just 75 rounds and a little time. Like you, I am very conservative, and I am leaning towards pulling the bullets. Thanks guys. But, a clarification of the discrepency would be informative too.
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  #24  
Old 01-09-2012, 08:18 PM
Capt. Methane Capt. Methane is offline
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Gerk, that's an interesting find!

SOA, yeah-it's really just a little time that you loose, you'll still have all the parts that you can reuse compared to a possible negative outcome...
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Last edited by Capt. Methane; 01-09-2012 at 08:22 PM.
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  #25  
Old 01-09-2012, 11:08 PM
buck-boost buck-boost is offline
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I am confused in the logic that a N frame S&W chambered in .45ACP is any stronger than a steel framed government model (modern examples). The bolt notches in the cylinder are inline with the chambers and very thin in the .45 caliber. People who "hot-rod" .45ACP and .45 Colt in their N frames scare me.
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