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  #26  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Rifter, are you watching Saving Private Ryan again while fondling your 1911?

The .45 ACP with ball ammo was never quite the infallible "manstopper" that the old fat guys sitting around the Legion Hall say it was. Total BS. There have been countless shootings with .45 ACP ball that people have lived through and many even killed the person shooting the .45 ACP. The ammo companies went to HP's because they were forced to. Mainly the pressure came from LEO's turning to Super Vel. That is why Win. introd the .38 Spcl. +p 158 gr. Lead HP as police were dying using the old 200 gr. RN lead bullets. Technology advances. Bullet design is far more important than caliber and a good bullet design with more velocity is often times better yet.

And yes, I shoot several thousand 9mm +p+ every year. They work. Trust me.




The legendary Federal 9mm BPLE 115 gr. +p+ HP and also the 9mm +P+ 115 grain Winchester Ranger HP (RA9115HP+).
9mm +P+ very closely duplicates, similarly to .357 Sig, the .357 Magnum loads in terms of ballistics. This accounts for the performance, because it destroys a lot of tissue in the body, and penetrates deeply. Combined with use of expanding hollowpoints, you get a bullet that makes a nice, big, clean hole.

Ball ammunition, no matter what caliber, is less than ideal because it produces a small wound channel just by virtue of the shape of the bullet. Sure, it goes through the body, but if it leaves a very closed, restricted wound channel behind it, this reduces blood loss and ultimately decreases the severity of the wound.

That being said, pistol rounds in general are poor choices if you are looking for lethality. From the medical data on real-world shootings, with proper, prompt treatment, they're something on the order of 80% survivable, regardless of caliber.

If you really need to *kill* and not *stop*, a rifle is a far better option because it will do exponentially larger amounts of damage and with a well-placed shot, be far less survivable.
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:04 AM
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LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
The 1911 is a fine platform...
And all this time I thought the 1911 was a pistol??

At any rate, gentlemen, watch the tone here. Keep it professional please.
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  #28  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:50 AM
baccusboy baccusboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R0CKETMAN View Post
Glad I don't base my self defense ammo purchases on the "you tube buyers guide" method.

Mike's forgotten more about 10mm loading than most all will ever know. I bet my life on it.

I'll take video of chrono statistics I can see with my own eyes over printing on a box any day of the week. Especially when multiple independent sources prove the same thing.

Maybe you would do better to base your self-defense ammo purchases based on YouTube results. Mock, scoff, or complain all you want. If you buy DT, you'll still be the guy purchasing overpriced rounds that don't live up to their claims.

Last edited by baccusboy; 12-28-2011 at 10:53 AM.
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  #29  
Old 12-28-2011, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Rifter, are you watching Saving Private Ryan again while fondling your 1911?

The .45 ACP with ball ammo was never quite the infallible "manstopper" that the old fat guys sitting around the Legion Hall say it was. Total BS. There have been countless shootings with .45 ACP ball that people have lived through and many even killed the person shooting the .45 ACP. The ammo companies went to HP's because they were forced to. Mainly the pressure came from LEO's turning to Super Vel. That is why Win. introd the .38 Spcl. +p 158 gr. Lead HP as police were dying using the old 200 gr. RN lead bullets. Technology advances. Bullet design is far more important than caliber and a good bullet design with more velocity is often times better yet.

And yes, I shoot several thousand 9mm +p+ every year. They work. Trust me.




The legendary Federal 9mm BPLE 115 gr. +p+ HP and also the 9mm +P+ 115 grain Winchester Ranger HP (RA9115HP+).

Yeah, yeah. We all get that you're a fanboy of sub-caliber, high speed rounds. But, it gets more than a little tiresome when you totally ignore the history of the .45. Perhaps you should be reminded that in the Philippine Insurrection when the .38 Long Colt proved inadequate to stop the Moro tribesmen, the Army reissued the old 1873 model .45 Colt Peacemakers which did the trick quite nicely.

The .45 ACP has a 74 year history as the military sidearm and a battle record that is untouchable by any other caliber. It also has a 100 year civilian history that is unassailable. Is it perfect? Hell, no. But if you apply the same level of technology to the .45 that you crow about as so effective for the 9mm, et. al., it still beats everything else out there as a combat pistol.

The real question, though, is whether or not you base your opinion on actual use, or just on the advertising hype and other BS floating around since the ammo companies started pushing 9mm +P hollow points? Have you ever actually used one in a real fight? I can speak from experience with the .45. Can you do the same with the 9mm? If you can't, don't try to blow smoke up my skirt about how ineffective a .45 is. I suspect those fat old boys at the VFW hall know a lot more about it than you do as well.
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  #30  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
Yeah, yeah. We all get that you're a fanboy of sub-caliber, high speed rounds. But, it gets more than a little tiresome when you totally ignore the history of the .45. Perhaps you should be reminded that in the Philippine Insurrection when the .38 Long Colt proved inadequate to stop the Moro tribesmen, the Army reissued the old 1873 model .45 Colt Peacemakers which did the trick quite nicely.

The .45 ACP has a 74 year history as the military sidearm and a battle record that is untouchable by any other caliber. It also has a 100 year civilian history that is unassailable. Is it perfect? Hell, no. But if you apply the same level of technology to the .45 that you crow about as so effective for the 9mm, et. al., it still beats everything else out there as a combat pistol.

The real question, though, is whether or not you base your opinion on actual use, or just on the advertising hype and other BS floating around since the ammo companies started pushing 9mm +P hollow points? Have you ever actually used one in a real fight? I can speak from experience with the .45. Can you do the same with the 9mm? If you can't, don't try to blow smoke up my skirt about how ineffective a .45 is. I suspect those fat old boys at the VFW hall know a lot more about it than you do as well.
There is apparently a department in IL that has used the 9mm +p+ has had excellent reviews of them. I'm still trying to dig up the sources for that.
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  #31  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:21 PM
gregcheck gregcheck is offline
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Wow to think all of this is from me asking " 10mm Self Defense Ammo ( what do you carry?) " . I would think the battle of the best should be between
9mm, 10mm ( 10mm since it is/was the topic) & the 45 acp, if we were to include the caliber that this post was first started for.
I have since ordered a few different types of ammo to try out against the time tested 10mm STHP I like to carry. I'm hoping they come in soon for me to try
G
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  #32  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcheck View Post
Wow to think all of this is from me asking " 10mm Self Defense Ammo ( what do you carry?) " . I would think the battle of the best should be between
9mm, 10mm ( 10mm since it is/was the topic) & the 45 acp, if we were to include the caliber that this post was first started for.
I have since ordered a few different types of ammo to try out against the time tested 10mm STHP I like to carry. I'm hoping they come in soon for me to try
G
There is no best to battle over. Just which one works best for you. They all, in the end, are user-dependent and they all have similar track records of effectiveness.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
There is no best to battle over. Just which one works best for you. They all, in the end, are user-dependent and they all have similar track records of effectiveness.
DK, you've convinced me about this. But would you agree that a significant advantage of the 10mm is that it can be also be loaded to defend against heavier 4-legged threats? That's why I've been considering getting back into 10mm.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGun View Post
DK, you've convinced me about this. But would you agree that a significant advantage of the 10mm is that it can be also be loaded to defend against heavier 4-legged threats? That's why I've been considering getting back into 10mm.
Depends on the 4-legged threats you're going after. Yes, a 10mm is a "better" hunting caliber, but I've seen a .45 and a .40 both take down wild pigs and dogs. So, what are you worried about?
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:46 PM
gregcheck gregcheck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
There is no best to battle over. Just which one works best for you. They all, in the end, are user-dependent and they all have similar track records of effectiveness.
AMEN!!
But I still like my 10mm
;O)

G
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:50 PM
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It's pretty rare to have animal problems around these parts, but I've run into cougar--and literally almost ran into a black bear on my mountain bike last year. I like to go fairly light though, so hand cannons are out. That's why I've been thinking about a G29.
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2011, 01:04 PM
gregcheck gregcheck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGun View Post
It's pretty rare to have animal problems around these parts, but I've run into cougar--and literally almost ran into a black bear on my mountain bike last year. I like to go fairly light though, so hand cannons are out. That's why I've been thinking about a G29.
I like the 1911 platform because its so thin, I know 15 are better than 9....
I had a G20 but the double stack made it a bit wide + heavier with the extra
rounds in the mag, so I bought a kimber 1911 full size which is pretty easy to conceal believe it or not... I too carry mine out in the woods of northern pa with the B.B. hard cast ammo .. just incase there's any issues with black bear. They usually go lumbering away from when they see me & in my parts they are not all that big. I just like having the ability or what I believe the ablilty is to have the upper hand if need be against a 200/250 pissed off animal.( I would hate to count on a 40 s&w for this purpose)
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2011, 01:15 PM
475/480 475/480 is offline
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Nosler 150 gr HP's at 1400 fps in a Custom Caspian 10MM .Recoil is not bad and they are very accurate .

Sean
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2011, 01:28 PM
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At least on paper, these loads look impressive for self-defense:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=272
and backcountry:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=219

Thoughts?
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2011, 01:46 PM
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I actually carry the 175 gr silver tip for " self defense" now. I've also order some double tap 165gr brass jacketed hollow points ( golden saber bullet) to try them out & yes I've seen the mixed reviews here and a few other places about them. I would like to try a box for myself so I can decide if they're "right" for me or not. I also see that double tap offers a few hard cast loads too...

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...hp?cPath=21_25
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  #41  
Old 12-28-2011, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGun View Post
At least on paper, these loads look impressive for self-defense:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=272
and backcountry:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=219

Thoughts?
Buffalo Bore has made a reputation for loading good, albeit hot, hunting ammo.
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  #42  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:33 PM
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+1 for Buffalo Bore
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:49 PM
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What's the story about shooting lead in a polygonal barrel, like the G29? That BB 220gr lead FN would seem to be a great backcountry load, but will it work well in a stock Glock barrel?
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2011, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcheck View Post
Wow to think all of this is from me asking " 10mm Self Defense Ammo ( what do you carry?) " . I would think the battle of the best should be between
9mm, 10mm ( 10mm since it is/was the topic) & the 45 acp, if we were to include the caliber that this post was first started for.
I have since ordered a few different types of ammo to try out against the time tested 10mm STHP I like to carry. I'm hoping they come in soon for me to try
G

Its a curious thing. Back in the days when the only ammo you had was FMJ, it was pretty easy to see which round was king of the hill, and why. I've heard hundreds of people over the years talk about how hard the .45 is to shoot, and how much it kicks, etc. That nonsense and a lot of inexperience is what drives people to 9mm.

After awhile though, they discovered that the 9mm was not as effective as the .45 in the hands of the average shooter. Then hollow points come along and hotter loads in the 9mm. A little later, we get the 10mm, but it quickly gets downgraded to the .40 S&W level. Why, too much recoil for any but the experienced shooter. So, at one end, you've got a smaller caliber that has to be beefed up to equal the .45, and at the other you've got more than enough power but excessive recoil compared to a .45.

The .45 is more popular today than at any time in its history -- for lots of reasons -- primarily because it gets the job done with minimal fuss and loads of authority. Once people spend a little time with it, they find that recoil isn't excessive, accuracy is excellent, etc. There have been dozens of attempts to improve on it, but in the end most of those come up wanting in some fashion or another.

Don't get me wrong. I like and have owned other guns than the .45. I've seen how everything from .38 Special up through .45 Auto Mag performed in combat matches, and it usually boiled down to how good the shooter was. It was also easy to see what the short comings and advantages of each were. But, in the end there can be only one, to steal a quote from 'Highlander.' At least 75% of the people I saw competing in those days was shooting a .45 ACP. Things haven't changed much since then.
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  #45  
Old 12-29-2011, 07:56 AM
gregcheck gregcheck is offline
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I use to shoot the federal a/e 10mm 180gr lead tc ammo out of my G20 without any issues, now I wasn't shooting 500rds at a clip it was more
like 100rds per outing. I think it shot pretty clean & it never seemed like it took longer to clean it no matter if I was using FMJ or the lead


G

Last edited by LW McVay; 12-29-2011 at 08:01 AM.
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2011, 03:48 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGun View Post
What's the story about shooting lead in a polygonal barrel, like the G29? That BB 220gr lead FN would seem to be a great backcountry load, but will it work well in a stock Glock barrel?
Both Buffalo Bore and Double Tap sell HARDCAST lead bullets that will function in Glock barrels. The trouble was with soft cast or swaged lead bullets in Glock barrels. I shoot DT 200 gr WFN lead ammo in my G23 and G27without any problems. Some cast bullets use a target alloy with a BHN of around 12 while Beartooth and Double Tap cast bullets with a BHN of 21-22. Double Tap casts their own hardcast bullets and Buffalo Bore uses commercially available hardcast bullets. I forgot who their supplier is but it is in the same BHN range. If you choose the 230 gr hardcast 10mm bullets by Double Tap use an aftermarket barrel as the heavy bullets won't stabilize in Glock barrels but are very accurate in barrels with conventional rifling. If you try to use Glock barrels with the 230 gr bullets you will get patterns, not groups. The 200 gr 40 S&W DT hardcast WFN ammo makes even my G27 a good trail gun. A 200 gr WFN with a meplat larger than any commercial 45 ACP ammo at 1000 fps is nothing to sneeze at.
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  #47  
Old 12-29-2011, 08:05 PM
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Thanks NonPC. That's a big help.
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  #48  
Old 12-30-2011, 10:58 AM
Gabe Asher Gabe Asher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcheck View Post
Wow to think all of this is from me asking " 10mm Self Defense Ammo ( what do you carry?) " . I would think the battle of the best should be between
9mm, 10mm ( 10mm since it is/was the topic) & the 45 acp, if we were to include the caliber that this post was first started for.
I have since ordered a few different types of ammo to try out against the time tested 10mm STHP I like to carry. I'm hoping they come in soon for me to try
G
SD...I like a 10mm 155 gr gold dot traveling between 1300 to 1400 fps. Or the same bullet in 40S&W doing 1200-1275fps. 9mm is for girls
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  #49  
Old 12-30-2011, 02:14 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Originally Posted by Gabe Asher View Post
SD...I like a 10mm 155 gr gold dot traveling between 1300 to 1400 fps. Or the same bullet in 40S&W doing 1200-1275fps. 9mm is for girls
I guess I will need a sex change operation
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  #50  
Old 12-30-2011, 03:52 PM
SWinokur SWinokur is offline
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Check out www.underwoodammo.com. full power loads.

BB started using Montana Gold bullets in their 180g SD rounds. I stopped buying them.
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