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  #1  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:34 AM
gregcheck gregcheck is offline
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10mm Self Defense Ammo ( what do you carry?)




I myself carry the winchester 175gr silvertip in my stainless target 2, the ammo shoots nice not a bad recoil. Its been a while since I looked to see if there are any newer or better offerings for the 10mm in a self defense round to be used in an urban areas, where sometimes I wonder/worry if the 175gr will be a liability issue. When I go out walking thru the woods I tend to carry buffalo bore 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.) where the penetration ( I have shot the norma stuff & I even have a trophy box on my shelf) is more need incase I happen across some type of 4-legged friend. Like I said I was just wondering if there was anything better out there today i should be considering......
G

Last edited by gregcheck; 12-27-2011 at 02:11 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2011, 04:37 PM
Hammer1 Hammer1 is offline
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.

Years ago went through Jeff Cooper's Gunsite advanced pistol course using a Colt Delta Elite in 10mm. Used Norma factory 200-grain FMJ at its 1,200 fps velocity. It really knocked the pepper poppers down fast and had a flat trajectory for the 100 yard steel targets.

In South Africa, one PH used a full-house 10mm with 200-grain non-expanding bullets at 1,200 fps on game animals. Saw him shoot a 54+ inch kudu with one. A one shot stop. He used the 10mm a lot for camp meat animals and for culling operations. When he used a rifle for this, he used either a 22 Hornet or a 7 x 57 Mauser. But he liked the 10mm Auto pistol. Last time I saw him, he had just gotten 1,000 new 10mm empty cases for loading.

(His partner used a first generation 44 Special Colt SAA with Keith loads for culling and had a nice collection of burst cylinders from experimentation.)

Though I carry a 45 Super a lot these days, when I do carry the 10mm, I still carry 200-grain bullets at 1,200 fps.

.

Last edited by Hammer1; 12-21-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2011, 04:49 PM
zenfly zenfly is offline
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Heres a HP 10mm slow motion through gel..I use Double Tap in my 10mm w/135gr Nosler JHP @ 1600fps and 767ft lb energy.. Kills black pigs dead where a 45 might take 2-3.. My EDC SD in a CBOB .45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z49Lbnt16M
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2011, 06:45 PM
jbar1tex jbar1tex is offline
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Question please...

Considering a semi-auto for Hunting / Field defense here in Texas (Hogs, Cats, etc...) Would love to hear opinions on the 10mm vs. say the .40 for this particular purpose. I am familiar with the differences and the background on these two, but was hoping to hear from folks who own or know these two rounds.

I plan on a polymer pistol that I can litteraly treat like my lawnmower - but something that packs the right punch (enough punch) and not something that "should" do the trick. Not intersted in a revolver as the various MAG rounds would easily do the trick, just asking between these two rounds is all.

Thanks in advance.
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2011, 07:00 PM
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Although I've never actually carried it, I've loaded Norma 135JHPs to about 1400fps, and would use that as a defense load for two-legged varmints. For four-legged, I'd go with a 200gr JTC at 1200fps.
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  #6  
Old 12-22-2011, 09:51 AM
CDW4ME CDW4ME is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbar1tex View Post
Question please...

Considering a semi-auto for Hunting / Field defense here in Texas (Hogs, Cats, etc...) Would love to hear opinions on the 10mm vs. say the .40 for this particular purpose. I am familiar with the differences and the background on these two, but was hoping to hear from folks who own or know these two rounds.

I plan on a polymer pistol that I can litteraly treat like my lawnmower - but something that packs the right punch (enough punch) and not something that "should" do the trick. Not intersted in a revolver as the various MAG rounds would easily do the trick, just asking between these two rounds is all.

Thanks in advance.
Here is a chrono comparison of the 40 and 10mm through polymer pistols.
Glock 27 (3 1/2'' barrel) Speer Gold Dot 155 gr. @ 1,134 fps / 442# KE
Glock 23 (4'' barrel) Speer Gold Dot 155 gr. @ 1,171 fps / 472# KE

Glock 29 (3 3/4'' barrel) Hornady 155 gr. XTP @ 1,279 fps / 563# KE

Gold Dots are a hot 40 S&W load compared to others, for example:
Glock 27 (3 1/2'' barrel) Winchester 155 gr. Silvertip @ 1,090 fps / 409# KE

The Hornady 10mm load is not very hot compared to some others, but it's all I've got and I think it would make a good SD load.
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2011, 10:29 AM
DeltaShooter DeltaShooter is offline
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I've had a Delta Elite since 1987 and after a little tweaking, it's been my favorite gun. For personal defense, there's nothing wrong with the Silvertips. HydraShocks are my other choice and recently I've acquired some Hornady 165gr FTX as well. If you're worried about the liability of over penetration in a defensive shooting situation, Glasers are the only product to really address that and of course they can have problems with heavy clothing clogging them up. I carry the HydraShocks most of the time as the muzzle flash seems less blinding than the Silvertips in the dark. In a "keep shooting until they're down" situation, I think the ability to see follow up shots is more important.
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2011, 11:01 AM
jbar1tex jbar1tex is offline
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CDW4ME - thank you very much for the input. Zactly what I was hoping to see. Been all over the web looking at various ballistics charts. But wanted to hear from someone with experience - so again I appreciate the input.

I guess I am trying to talk myslef into a .40 for a job where the 10mm will absolutely work. Problem is I am not into the Glock all that much yet like the M&P series. S&W M&P however do not, and will not, make a 10mm. So perhaps I wait for the Gen 4 G20 to arrive and see how that feels. Likley the SF frame as well.
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2011, 12:09 PM
gregcheck gregcheck is offline
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Has anyone had an expierence with the 135gr double tap, or even the 135gr/150gr corbon ammo. I realize I'm looking for some what of a "fine" line between over penetration & the ability to neutralize a two legged threat quickly, while using a "true" 10mm load. I'm trying to limit bullet penetration by reducing the weight of the bullet itself
I have carried & used the hydro-shock ammo, but I just feel they're down loaded too much
G
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2011, 12:57 PM
DeltaShooter DeltaShooter is offline
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I pin shoot with a guy that shoots the Double Taps all the time in his Glock. They don't quite have the same spectacular effect on pins as the heavier 10mm bullets. What that translates to in the world of 2 legged threats, I don't know.
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  #11  
Old 12-24-2011, 09:08 AM
baccusboy baccusboy is offline
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Double Tap is an absolute waste of money, and the company ought to be sued for false advertising.

Spend some time on Youtube after searching on "10mm Double Tap Chrono" or something similar. Simply put -- they lie. And it's not just out of a 10mm, either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNXt...eature=related

Results can be off by as much as 200-400 fps. in some calibers.

Feel free to do a similar search on any caliber you like, and see the results. Multiple independent sources show that the numbers offered by DT are inflated.

Last edited by baccusboy; 12-24-2011 at 09:13 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2011, 01:38 PM
Jack1911 Jack1911 is offline
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I carry the 175 gr. Winchester Silvertips. No, the Silvertip isn't a super duper high tech bullet design, but it is a load that is reliable, and accurate out of my G20, and I am sure it would do the job just fine if I ever had to use it in self defense.
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2011, 09:55 PM
390ish 390ish is offline
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180 Golden Sabres over a max load of 800-X out of a G29. Makes my finger go numb after about four rounds. Shooting factory ammo out of a 10mm makes about as much sense as shooting factory ammo out of a 38 super.
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  #14  
Old 12-25-2011, 08:36 PM
harrygunner harrygunner is offline
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I use Double Tap 180gr XTP and Gold Dot ammo for self defense. I bought thousands of rounds six years when their ammo actually came with those bullets and performance matched what's on the label.
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  #15  
Old 12-26-2011, 07:51 AM
baccusboy baccusboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 390ish View Post
180 Golden Sabres over a max load of 800-X out of a G29. Makes my finger go numb after about four rounds. Shooting factory ammo out of a 10mm makes about as much sense as shooting factory ammo out of a 38 super.
I looked at the specs for a lot of factory ammo, and really couldn't see the benefit of 10mm over 40 cal when using it for SD against people. Sure, you could load it with something non-factory, but it seems almost as if 10mm has been watered-down so much (or perhaps the full-house loads are overkill for SD).

For hogs and such, I can see it. Otherwise, is there really any benefit to carrying 10mm for SD?
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  #16  
Old 12-27-2011, 10:50 AM
R0CKETMAN R0CKETMAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baccusboy View Post
Double Tap is an absolute waste of money, and the company ought to be sued for false advertising.

Spend some time on Youtube after searching on "10mm Double Tap Chrono" or something similar. Simply put -- they lie. And it's not just out of a 10mm, either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNXt...eature=related

Results can be off by as much as 200-400 fps. in some calibers.

Feel free to do a similar search on any caliber you like, and see the results. Multiple independent sources show that the numbers offered by DT are inflated.

Glad I don't base my self defense ammo purchases on the "you tube buyers guide" method.

Mike's forgotten more about 10mm loading than most all will ever know. I bet my life on it.
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  #17  
Old 12-27-2011, 12:01 PM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Originally Posted by baccusboy View Post
I looked at the specs for a lot of factory ammo, and really couldn't see the benefit of 10mm over 40 cal when using it for SD against people. Sure, you could load it with something non-factory, but it seems almost as if 10mm has been watered-down so much (or perhaps the full-house loads are overkill for SD).

For hogs and such, I can see it. Otherwise, is there really any benefit to carrying 10mm for SD?

I don't think so. I still don't understand why the FBI didn't just issue 1911 .45s to its agents and be done with it. Nobody ever accused the .45 LC of being inadequate as a man stopper, and the .45 ACP is essentially the same thing in an auto. What else do you need to know?
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  #18  
Old 12-27-2011, 02:27 PM
gregcheck gregcheck is offline
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Has anyone had any experience with the double tap 10mm 165gr brass jacketed hollow point? ( I see they have them listed as using the golden saber bullet)I've always had a soft spot for the golden saber bullet, I have them in a few calibers & they always functioned well feeding & so on.... just wondering if anyone out there has tried them
G
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  #19  
Old 12-27-2011, 07:33 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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...I still don't understand why the FBI didn't just issue 1911 .45s to its agents and be done with it. Nobody ever accused the .45 LC of being inadequate as a man stopper, and the .45 ACP is essentially the same thing in an auto. What else do you need to know?

Actually, the .45 Colt was a lousy manstopper, but that was only because the pointy nosed bullets zipped right through people & animals. Elmer Keith wrote about this in Sixguns.

Issue the 1911 en masse? No way, Jose. Even the Military had soldiers assigned a 1911 carry w/o a round in the chamber. Ever wonder why? I know of one case in the Midwest where a deputy carried a 1911 and during a stop accidentally blew a woman's head off.

In the city where I live the PD allows LEO's to carry a 1911 after a special class but very few choose to carry one. They prefer SIGs or Glocks as they easier to repair and not as finicky as a STOCK 1911. Many just simply prefer a "point & pull" platform.

The 1911 was a fine platform in its day and still is for special purposes for highly trained operators, e.g., FBI HRT & LAPD SWAT. Even these dept's have a 2nd 1911 in case the first one goes down and that = lots of money in today's age of budget cuts. Factor in that the average LEO of today is not a "gun" person and see their sidearm as just another part of the job and you get a better picture.

The 1911 is a fine platform, but for LEO work it is for the highly trained operator and today's parameters just don't allow that for general issuance.

Besides, the .45 ACP is no "death ray" and in reality does no better than today's 9mm & .40 S&W with modern HP's.
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Old 12-27-2011, 07:51 PM
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DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Actually, the .45 Colt was a lousy manstopper, but that was only because the pointy nosed bullets zipped right through people & animals. Elmer Keith wrote about this in Sixguns.

Issue the 1911 en masse? No way, Jose. Even the Military had soldiers assigned a 1911 carry w/o a round in the chamber. Ever wonder why? I know of one case in the Midwest where a deputy carried a 1911 and during a stop accidentally blew a woman's head off.

In the city where I live the PD allows LEO's to carry a 1911 after a special class but very few choose to carry one. They prefer SIGs or Glocks as they easier to repair and not as finicky as a STOCK 1911. Many just simply prefer a "point & pull" platform.

The 1911 was a fine platform in its day and still is for special purposes for highly trained operators, e.g., FBI HRT & LAPD SWAT. Even these dept's have a 2nd 1911 in case the first one goes down and that = lots of money in today's age of budget cuts. Factor in that the average LEO of today is not a "gun" person and see their sidearm as just another part of the job and you get a better picture.

The 1911 is a fine platform, but for LEO work it is for the highly trained operator and today's parameters just don't allow that for general issuance.

Besides, the .45 ACP is no "death ray" and in reality does no better than today's 9mm & .40 S&W with modern HP's.
Hmm, I thought you said the 9mm +p+ loading was like a virtual death ray?
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  #21  
Old 12-27-2011, 07:53 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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Hmm, I thought you said the 9mm +p+ loading was like a virtual death ray?
I did, so what's that got to do with .45 ACP?
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:08 PM
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I did, so what's that got to do with .45 ACP?
Just seems that if the .45 ACP does no better than the 9mm and .40 Smith with modern HPs, which is supported by the couple of thousand of shooting incidents I've studied, then that would make them all pretty much equal.

I agree with you, after more research, the +P+ 9mm you list is roughly equivalent in ballistics to the .357 magnum, which has a great track record.

I'm not sure I agree completely that it's a "virtual death ray", but I agree it's an effective load.

I stand by the basic statement that shot placement is queen, and using a rifle is king.
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:16 PM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Actually, the .45 Colt was a lousy manstopper, but that was only because the pointy nosed bullets zipped right through people & animals. Elmer Keith wrote about this in Sixguns.

Issue the 1911 en masse? No way, Jose. Even the Military had soldiers assigned a 1911 carry w/o a round in the chamber. Ever wonder why? I know of one case in the Midwest where a deputy carried a 1911 and during a stop accidentally blew a woman's head off.

In the city where I live the PD allows LEO's to carry a 1911 after a special class but very few choose to carry one. They prefer SIGs or Glocks as they easier to repair and not as finicky as a STOCK 1911. Many just simply prefer a "point & pull" platform.

The 1911 was a fine platform in its day and still is for special purposes for highly trained operators, e.g., FBI HRT & LAPD SWAT. Even these dept's have a 2nd 1911 in case the first one goes down and that = lots of money in today's age of budget cuts. Factor in that the average LEO of today is not a "gun" person and see their sidearm as just another part of the job and you get a better picture.

The 1911 is a fine platform, but for LEO work it is for the highly trained operator and today's parameters just don't allow that for general issuance.

Besides, the .45 ACP is no "death ray" and in reality does no better than today's 9mm & .40 S&W with modern HP's.

ALL of the high speed, high pressure rounds that everybody seems to think are the equal of the .45 wouldn't be worth spit if they ran at the same pressure. Anybody who thinks a smaller, lighter gun running ammo that has to work at twice the pressure of the .45 is easier to hit with, and just as effective is barking up the wrong tree.

The main reason the ammo makers started pushing hollow point bullets was because the normal rounds in those smaller calibers were inadequate for the job. Even at high pressures and with hollow points, those loads only equal the .45, they don't surpass it. But it is all moot, because if you're not willing to put in the time practicing with that "death ray" 9mm you're so fond of, its worthless. Jacking up speed and pressure, and giving the shooter 15 rds or more only encourages poor shooting habits. Also, don't blame the soldier or the trooper when the real culprit is inadequate training. I've seen just as many stupid mistakes, if not more, from people with Glocks as with 1911s.
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2011, 08:17 PM
iGun iGun is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
Hmm, I thought you said the 9mm +p+ loading was like a virtual death ray?
I think I missed something in this thread... Which load is that?
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:44 AM
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ALL of the high speed, high pressure rounds that everybody seems to think are the equal of the .45 wouldn't be worth spit if they ran at the same pressure. Anybody who thinks a smaller, lighter gun running ammo that has to work at twice the pressure of the .45 is easier to hit with, and just as effective is barking up the wrong tree.

The main reason the ammo makers started pushing hollow point bullets was because the normal rounds in those smaller calibers were inadequate for the job. Even at high pressures and with hollow points, those loads only equal the .45, they don't surpass it. But it is all moot, because if you're not willing to put in the time practicing with that "death ray" 9mm you're so fond of, its worthless. Jacking up speed and pressure, and giving the shooter 15 rds or more only encourages poor shooting habits. Also, don't blame the soldier or the trooper when the real culprit is inadequate training. I've seen just as many stupid mistakes, if not more, from people with Glocks as with 1911s.
Rifter, are you watching Saving Private Ryan again while fondling your 1911?

The .45 ACP with ball ammo was never quite the infallible "manstopper" that the old fat guys sitting around the Legion Hall say it was. Total BS. There have been countless shootings with .45 ACP ball that people have lived through and many even killed the person shooting the .45 ACP. The ammo companies went to HP's because they were forced to. Mainly the pressure came from LEO's turning to Super Vel. That is why Win. introd the .38 Spcl. +p 158 gr. Lead HP as police were dying using the old 200 gr. RN lead bullets. Technology advances. Bullet design is far more important than caliber and a good bullet design with more velocity is often times better yet.

And yes, I shoot several thousand 9mm +p+ every year. They work. Trust me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iGun View Post
I think I missed something in this thread... Which load is that?
The legendary Federal 9mm BPLE 115 gr. +p+ HP and also the 9mm +P+ 115 grain Winchester Ranger HP (RA9115HP+).
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