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  #26  
Old 01-08-2011, 12:45 PM
NETim NETim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobMoore View Post
Do you shoot IDPA on the street, or does your range use gravel, sand, grass, or dirt?

When my IDPA matches are held on concrete and asphalt, I will start wearing my daily shoes. Until then, what I wear at matches has little to do with what I wear in daily life.

I use these, because slipping and falling with a loaded gun isn't fun.
They are my offroad running shoes. Salomon Speed Cross 2
To me the shoes thing is a matter of common sense. Safety takes priority. I wouldn't wear my black oxford leather smooth soled geek shoes to the range.

I was addressing the larger question of equipment in general.
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2011, 02:53 PM
Strick69 Strick69 is offline
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I am always slightly amused by people calling someone a gamer or even cheater because they are good enough to win. I think if you use those terms alot after the match scores come out then I think the first place you should look is your own shooting.
  #28  
Old 01-08-2011, 03:07 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
As far as Tri cut slides, IMHO it's slide lighting, as it is NOT a standard production slide configuration.
Several brands of 1911s are offered in this config and some slide manufactures offer it as well. STI and SVI come to mind right away.

I am pretty sure 1911s compete in Enhanced and Custom Defensive Pistol Divisions. Key words, Enhanced and Custom.

When you make up rules you do a disservice to the entire sport.
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Last edited by Tom Freeman; 01-08-2011 at 05:50 PM.
  #29  
Old 01-08-2011, 05:40 PM
Steel1212 Steel1212 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Sorry guys I didn't mean to ruffle anybodies feathers. I incorrectly used the term gamers. But I didn't want to use the cheater word.
Your not ruffling feathers you just PLAYING a different GAME than the rest of us. If you want to play IDPA by your rules thats fine but because we play with in the rules doesn't make us wrong for doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
As far as Tri cut slides, IMHO it's slide lighting, as it is NOT a standard production slide configuration. Yes it looks cool, but the real reason is to lighten the slide for faster cycling. Let's face it, it's a custom modification and not found on production guns, so far that I'm aware of. If I am incorrect please enlighten me. It's just the degradation of the rules so what's it matter. So much for a level field of competition.
And there is nothing wrong with taking full advantage of the rules, as long as it's safe.
Custom modification that goes in CUSTOM defensive pistol or ENHANCED Service pistol. Many companies offer on their PRODUCTION guns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Same for reduced power loads, again IMHO using reduced power loads is legal but I don't know any MM, SS class shooters that can shoot full power loads as fast as reduced power loads, so who's kidding whom? Well I do know a couple of shooter who can but they are Master shooters and they don't use reduced power loads.
Every shooter that I shoot with Master/Grand Master ETC. shoots reloads. They shoot above the power factor floor which is legal. Again don't blame the better shooters because they are taking advantage of the rules because you choose not to. Could we shoot well with factory ammo, sure but why when we can have less wear and tear on our equipment and our bodies buy down loading and still meeting the PF floor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
I still maintain that using the mercury wrist weight thingy is cheating, alright I said it. I just have a hard time believing anyone would wear one all day long everyday ever where they go. Might as well allow mercury filled FLGR, as long as you can stay below maximum weight. What the difference?
I would have to agree with you that I would see this as cheating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Again I apologize for being a straight arrow and following the rules as intended and not using the loopholes.
What loop holes are we using? The things you have listed are in black and white in the rule book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
It's still all in fun. Be safe and shoot straight.
I agree NETim. Rule #1 of a gunfight WIN by whatever means required. There is no cheating in a gunfight only winning or losing BIG.
I'm still curious though as you haven't answered my question. Do you use factory gold dots, carry holster/mag pouches, carry gun that you wear every day, all the kit in your pockets that you EDC every day while shooting?
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  #30  
Old 01-08-2011, 06:03 PM
eljay45 eljay45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NETim View Post
My take on it is, if you shoot IDPA in anything but what you would wear and use on the street, then the only person you're cheating is yourself.

)
True if you use IDPA as gunfighter school. I wonder how many of of the anti gamer crowd think it' tactically sound or realistic to advance on 9 threat targets or clear a couple of rooms by yourself. To stick with the real life intentions of IDPA shouldn't we be shooting 3 or 4 round stages with one or two bad guys. A 40 round match probably wouldn't be near as much fun.
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  #31  
Old 01-08-2011, 06:39 PM
SJB SJB is offline
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"Gamer" the mating cry of mediocrity

Fair fight = poor tactics

The only written reference I've found that gave any insight into the intended spirit of IDPA was the Rausch book "Practically Speaking". It looked to me like he intended it to be a game played with practical tools. There are several admonishments about NOT using IDPA matchs as tactical schools. The real world has 360 degree threats with postitions and tactics that change with time and in response to your actions. I'm pretty sure Hackathorne and Vickers don't actually teach the Tactical Reload in their schools, Rausch even has a few caveats in his book.

I've never seen the mercury wrist straps. I'd welcome the guy to my division and classification. He'd be easy to beat because he's focusing on the wrong thing, hardware instead of software.

The comments about the reality of the range and it's effect on daily wear clothing were right on. Should we also start competing without eye and ear protection?

IDPA is a fun game played with practical tools that builds fundamental skills and not tactics. It's a large enough group that there is a lot of whining and rationalization for poor performances. You don't have to agree with the rules, just follow them after the buzzer goes off.
  #32  
Old 01-08-2011, 08:10 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Yes Corey I do. Richie "Open Port" or High Noon "Need for Speed", with Blackhawk Serpa single mag carriers, and S/A Champion SS Loaded, which is my EDC, 230 FMJ factory ammo for range use and 230 JHP factory ammo for EDC . SERE 2000 Al Mar in my pocket as well as wallet with Ids and cell phone, just like any other day.
Yes I agree the stages should have lower round counts per string, with more than 1 string per stage. The stages I prefer to design use fewer targets at moderate ranges with different strings of fire shooting strong hand, weak hand and free style with normal shooting positions and movement to cover. I try to design self defense scenarios not night of the zombie scenarios and without specific instructions on how to shoot the stage. I design a scenario and let the shooter figure the best way for them to shoot it, as long as it's safe. I agree high round counts are fun, but in reality if we shot as many rounds on the street that we do in matches, we would be up the creek for a loong time.
And No I do not use IDPA for tacticool training, I try to attend at least one shooting school class per year, when my work schedule allows. Yes I don't practice nearly as much as I should, just once a week during the warmer months of a least 100-200 rounds per session and 1 match per month. I use to make 3 matches a month, but ammo and gas costs has forced me to cut back. This year I have no plans to shoot any sanctioned matches, only monthly club level matches.
I don't consider reloader's gamer, just smart and economical. I do reload for my bolt gun and my wheel gun just not for my semi autos. I was speaking of bunny fart loads, you know the ones that just barely clear the muzzle and you can see slowly travel down range to the target.
As far as being mediocre well if putting safety and accuracy before speed makes me mediocre so be it. Gamers are the ones working the loopholes in the stage designs and or using slightly unsafe tactics to shave a half second. I don't envy top shooters I admire them for their skill, dedication and investment to being the top shooters.
I tried fast first but got nowhere, so I went back to the basics and started over this past year. It's all coming together but it is a slow process for me. The latest problem I have detected with me is that I find myself checking my hits instead of calling the shot and moving on. Correcting that is scheduled for this year. I keep telling my self slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Be safe and shoot straight.
  #33  
Old 01-08-2011, 10:21 PM
GSWEAR GSWEAR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
I was speaking of bunny fart loads, you know the ones that just barely clear the muzzle and you can see slowly travel down range to the target.
If they are shooting loads that are clearly below power factor they are cheaters and not gamers and need to be dealt with accordingly.

Quote:
Gamers are the ones working the loopholes in the stage designs and or using slightly unsafe tactics to shave a half second.
For my own ignorance could you please give examples of these loop holes or unsafe tactics they are using to shave time.
  #34  
Old 01-08-2011, 10:37 PM
tonusmaximus tonusmaximus is offline
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I wonder if the rule book will address a tactical shoe tie vs. a standard untied shoe?
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  #35  
Old 01-09-2011, 09:44 AM
simonsay simonsay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSWEAR View Post

For my own ignorance could you please give examples of these loop holes or unsafe tactics they are using to shave time.
I would be interested in this answer too.

I didn't start this thread to start a pissin' contest, or to poke fun at IDPA specifically, or to expose gamers (who by the way are playing a game), endorse trail running shoes or argue about vests and who wears them in public; but rather to, once again, show that rules made are rules that will be pushed. If you want an equipment race, just introduce an equipment rule.

Last edited by simonsay; 01-09-2011 at 08:45 PM.
  #36  
Old 01-09-2011, 04:44 PM
Steel1212 Steel1212 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Yes Corey I do. 230 FMJ factory ammo for range use and 230 JHP factory ammo for EDC .
So no you don't. You change from Factory "range" FMJ Wally world white box type rounds to shoot the match but you say you carry "gold dot" type JHP factory ammo as your EDC. So you do change your ammo just as I suspected. You use down loaded ammo from your carry ammo. From the way your preaching you should be able to roll out of the car and shoot the stages, top of the mags with the same ammo and go back to your car, but your not doing that. Your switching ammo.

With that said that is the only thing you change so I applaud you for that. Most of the people that get upset with me because I treat IDPA as a Game and I'm there to win would have a range gun, holster, mag pouches, ammo etc.

Why, well probably because its cheaper and I can agree with that but so is my ammo as well. On the other hand my ammo is more accurate than factory, runs my gun well, and is easier on me and my equipment.

With regard to your round count to stages. A few low round count stages are fine but as a MD your there to please the paying shooter. Now if you have five 8 round stages a month and people keep coming to shoot the matches then I guess your doing something right for that area. I know if you did that around here you would no longer have a match as we would go else where. As a MD your there to please the paying shooter. Not cater to them but they are paying to have a fun/challenging match.
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Last edited by Steel1212; 01-09-2011 at 04:53 PM.
  #37  
Old 01-10-2011, 03:59 PM
dojpros dojpros is offline
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My personal IDPA beefs

1. No carrying AIWB. There has always been folk who have done this and its more and more popular all the time.

2. No Weapon Mounted Light unless you are a LEO in full duty gear.
With the advent of Raven Concealment Systems and many of their competitors' holsters ( two sheets of kydex, often as thin as .060-.080, riveted together), one can now carry IWB or OWB a full sized gun with a WML that conceals just as well or better than a gun w/o a WML in other holsters. i.e. Blade Tech, Comp-Tac, Side Armor etc.

3. Limitations on how "stippled" a polymer gun can be-
You would think that something like this which helps you hold onto the gun a speed would be a good thing.

Putting timing and thru put of competitiors issues aside, it would interesting to see what would happen if you conducted a "run what you brung" match.
If you are typically armed with a mid/fullsized gun w/ a reload- no problem.
If you only have a baby glock, J frame, Kahr or Kel Tec, you will likely have some problems. If everything is in your gear bag, you can start rigging up when the buzzer goes off.

The logistics would be a bit of a challenge but not impossible.

YMMV Greatly,
  #38  
Old 01-10-2011, 04:31 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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dojpros,

Understanding that I get along with the present rules but could accomodate or even like some changes...

1. You are going to have to help me here, what is AIWB?

2. I have no problem with a searchlight... as long as your rig makes weight and fits The Box.

3. I think there are already too many changes allowed to Stock Service Pistol... and not enough permitted in Custom Defensive Pistol and Enhanced Service Pistol. Stipple your CDP or ESP anywhere you like. And keep the aftermarket alterations and parts off your SSP.

Actually I HAVE shot run what you brung events. Digging a gun and ammo out of a range bag is tedious. Whipping out a pocket pistol is educational.
  #39  
Old 01-10-2011, 06:23 PM
2MoreChains 2MoreChains is offline
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AIWB = Appendix IWB carry?
  #40  
Old 01-10-2011, 06:32 PM
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RickB RickB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
dojpros,

Understanding that I get along with the present rules but could accomodate or even like some changes...

1. You are going to have to help me here, what is AIWB?

2. I have no problem with a searchlight... as long as your rig makes weight and fits The Box.

3. I think there are already too many changes allowed to Stock Service Pistol... and not enough permitted in Custom Defensive Pistol and Enhanced Service Pistol. Stipple your CDP or ESP anywhere you like. And keep the aftermarket alterations and parts off your SSP.

Actually I HAVE shot run what you brung events. Digging a gun and ammo out of a range bag is tedious. Whipping out a pocket pistol is educational.
Excellent points, all!
Now, how do any of the last dozen or so posts have anything to do with whether or not the pictured shoes are legal? The rule book says no to athletic cleats; are they athletic cleats?
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  #41  
Old 01-10-2011, 06:48 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Good call Rick.

If someone wants to talk about cleats, let me know and I will reopen the thread.

If you want to talk about gamers, cheaters, illegal firearms modifications, tactics, ect, start a new thread.
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