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  #451  
Old 12-04-2011, 07:17 PM
ColColt ColColt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetman45 View Post
FMJ's will definitely do the job as this was the original bullet designed for the 1911. The issue is over penetration and endangering the public and putting yourself in a situation where an innocent person gets hit after it goes through the bad guy. You are responsible for the bullet that leaves your weapon so why risk lawsuits and financial ruin and possible encarceration by using FMJ's for SD? Good quality HP's will eliminate that risk!!
+1-This. The only problem I have with FMJ is where is it going to end up if you're not home but in a store, in your car and an attempted hijack comes your way. Statistics prove most of the bullets fired by law enforcement don't hit their intended targets and under similar circumstances I don't think we'd hit 5 out of 5 times at our intended targets with adrenalin pumping and nerves trembling. A gunfight is no sporting event and what you can do at the range and what you'll do in an actual one on one face to face encounter is different. You don't know for sure what you'll do until faced with that circumstance. You can speculate all day but when the moment comes you may be as cool as John Wesley Hardin or fall apart like Barney Pfife.

With FMJ if you miss or even if you hit on the peripheral area of the body, that bullet's going somewhere. You alone are responsible once that bullet leaves the barrel. FMJ ammo will get the job done-no question about it but it's original intent was the battlefield, not the local convenient store or while you're filling your gas tank and someone decides to rob you while your hands are busy. I'd hate to know I'd miss and hit a nine year old girl thirty feet away.
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  #452  
Old 12-05-2011, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColColt View Post
+1-This. The only problem I have with FMJ is where is it going to end up if you're not home but in a store, in your car and an attempted hijack comes your way. Statistics prove most of the bullets fired by law enforcement don't hit their intended targets and under similar circumstances I don't think we'd hit 5 out of 5 times at our intended targets with adrenalin pumping and nerves trembling. A gunfight is no sporting event and what you can do at the range and what you'll do in an actual one on one face to face encounter is different. You don't know for sure what you'll do until faced with that circumstance. You can speculate all day but when the moment comes you may be as cool as John Wesley Hardin or fall apart like Barney Pfife.

With FMJ if you miss or even if you hit on the peripheral area of the body, that bullet's going somewhere. You alone are responsible once that bullet leaves the barrel. FMJ ammo will get the job done-no question about it but it's original intent was the battlefield, not the local convenient store or while you're filling your gas tank and someone decides to rob you while your hands are busy. I'd hate to know I'd miss and hit a nine year old girl thirty feet away.

If you're worrying about where your bullet might go in the middle of a gun fight, then you likely won't have much to worry about, because you'll be dead!

It is a given that you need to practice reaction drills, double tap drills, etc., so that you have a reasonable expectation that you'll hit what you shoot at. It is also a given that you use ammo that is sufficient to end the exchange with a decent hit.

The ONLY thing you should be worrying about in a gun fight, is ending it as quickly as humanly possible. If you're thinking about other things you are giving the other guy that split second of indecision that may be all he needs to end it in HIS favor.

If you aren't prepared to go down that road -- for whatever reason -- then you shouldn't be carrying or using a gun in the first place.
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  #453  
Old 12-08-2011, 06:38 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
If you're worrying about where your bullet might go in the middle of a gun fight, then you likely won't have much to worry about, because you'll be dead!

It is a given that you need to practice reaction drills, double tap drills, etc., so that you have a reasonable expectation that you'll hit what you shoot at. It is also a given that you use ammo that is sufficient to end the exchange with a decent hit.

The ONLY thing you should be worrying about in a gun fight, is ending it as quickly as humanly possible. If you're thinking about other things you are giving the other guy that split second of indecision that may be all he needs to end it in HIS favor.

If you aren't prepared to go down that road -- for whatever reason -- then you shouldn't be carrying or using a gun in the first place.
Exactly. A center of mass hit with a fmj will be a lot more effective than a miss with the best hollowpoint on the market. DK talks about the warrior mindset. You enter the fray with your mind focused on drilling the BG dead center, not what will happen to a bullet downrange if you miss. If you are wasting precious time thinking about what happens if you miss you have given the BG that same amount of time to try and kill you.
  #454  
Old 12-08-2011, 07:02 PM
Dr Guido Dr Guido is offline
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Well he's right about that. When your life is threatened, you put the other guy down right that instant and regret it later when you have time. You go into the fray with the sole intent to "stop" (I hate that lie) the other guy first.
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  #455  
Old 12-08-2011, 07:08 PM
40dcoe 40dcoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr Guido View Post
Well he's right about that. When your life is threatened, you put the other guy down right that instant and regret it later when you have time. You go into the fray with the sole intent to "stop" (I hate that lie) the other guy first.
Lie? Splain.

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  #456  
Old 12-18-2011, 02:57 PM
RIDGEBURNER RIDGEBURNER is offline
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I've seen this question in various forms on several sites now, so I decided to do an unscientific demonstration of the penetration power of the 147 grain 9mm FMJ round.

http://youtu.be/YYAVeNx-UGo
  #457  
Old 01-19-2012, 07:40 PM
GeoPop GeoPop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekker View Post
As I said in my original post, I would like to get comfortable with carrying the same ammo as I shoot at the range (fmj).

I am comfortable that .45 is a stopper in fmj, but over-penetration is a concern. When I consider the odds against ever needing to draw for SD, over-penetration concern is somewhat diminished as a practical matter.

I am less comfortable with 9mm fmj for SD. Here, I'd really like to find a jhp that is shaped to feed like a fmj; if there is such a round, even if more expensive, the reliability would be enhanced. I carry 9mm most often for comfort and conceal ability.

Do the flat nosed .45 fmj rounds feed with the same reliability as ball or more like hp?
Trekker, a couple of comments:

First, the military carries FMJ for two reasons... one, over penetration isn't an issue...line 'em up and get more than one... two, I'm pretty sure the Geneva Convention still prohibits HPs. They are considered "dirty" bullets. That's why the M16 round is so well liked, not HP but tumbles like crazy on entry.

Second, if you spend some time on YouTube watching ballistic testing and reading the reports you'll find the information that will lead to your comfort zone. I've spent hours pouring over them...

Third (yep, I lied, three comments), there's two ammos that are reported (via some of those YouTube tests) to feed like ball. That's Corbon Pow'RBall (has a polymer ball in the cavity making it as rounded as FMJ ball) and Hornady's Critical Defense (also has a polymer filler in the cavity). I personally use Winchester's Supreme Elite or Speer Gold Dots in all my self-defense guns, except my pocket gun. In my pocket rocket KelTec 32 (that's always with me) I use Fiocchi FMJ...hot but no over penetration issues.
  #458  
Old 01-19-2012, 08:58 PM
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Actually, it's not the Geneva conventions, but the Hague accord, which predates the geneva conventions.

And, it wasn't an issue with hollowpoints, but with soft point deforming bullets. The argument was that they caused more traumatic wounds and thus caused unneccessary suffering.

The US is not a signatory of the accord, and as such does not need to follow the doctrine of using FMJ only, however we are voluntarily bound to the legal tenants of those agreements.

Pow'r'ball, Critical Defense, EFMJ, and other designs going back into the 80s attempting to solve the plugging issue by eliminating the hollowpoint in favor of a plug are nothing new, and in most cases they really don't show any improved reliability of expansion over quality hollowpoint designs.

In some cases, the polymer tip actually has caused feed issues in some guns.

Bullets like speer's gold dots, winchester's ranger, and other similar hollowpoint designs show as close to 100% reliable expansion as possible, without the need for special plugs or gimmicks.

Where the gold dot and other conventional designs excel is achieving a far deeper penetration than the 160gr pow'r ball and 185gr critical defense, and having greater lethality after encountering barriers.

Enough real life data exists on the gold dot, ranger, federal hst and similar loads to say that they are worthy of trust where others have not yet proven themselves.
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  #459  
Old 01-22-2012, 06:51 PM
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The treaties signed dating back to 1864 concerning warfare prohibit the use of Hollowpoint or DUM DUM ammunition. That is why the military uses Ball ammo. The Beretta 92 will reliably feed empty cases.
  #460  
Old 01-22-2012, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DeputySC View Post
The treaties signed dating back to 1864 concerning warfare prohibit the use of Hollowpoint or DUM DUM ammunition. That is why the military uses Ball ammo. The Beretta 92 will reliably feed empty cases.
Yep. And "dum dum" is not a type of ammo, per se, but rather an Armory in India that developed soft point and expanding ammo
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  #461  
Old 02-03-2012, 08:18 PM
WMG-21 WMG-21 is offline
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What about the RBCD ammo? Anyone have any real-world experience with that? (Preferably in .45 acp and even more preferably, as used in a 1911 platform).

There seems to be some controversy surrounding the round. In this copy of "American Cop" (click link below for the digital copy) a PD in Fla. started using the round after ballistics tests:

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...canCop/ACJA09/

But here, an industry analyst tears apart the round as nothing more than a high-velocity varmint round that's been disguised with some black moly:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888

Anyone have any personal experience with the round? A friend of mine gave me a magazines worth for "home defense" but now I wonder if I'd be better served with traditional ammo, either FMJ or JHP.
  #462  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:05 AM
mshenry2 mshenry2 is offline
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If you live in a urban setting that over penatration is a concern, I am a city dweller so I chose to use hydra shok JHP rounds in my carry weapon, they do not have the thru and thru worries plus they do not ricochet less chance of hitting a non intended target and have the power to hit the off switch when encountering a perp that jacketed rounds might miss. I have witnessed suspects being hit numerous times with jacketed rounds and continuing the fight, where just one Hydra Shok JHP ended the confrontation with less rounds exchanged by both parties. If you are just punching holes in paper than choice of round is what ever is cheapest but your life and the life of people around you needs much more thought. Just my .02 cents worth
  #463  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:18 AM
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The problem is not overpenetration in most cases. The bigger concern is a miss. Freak occurrences with even the most tried and true rounds, so you can get underpenetration or overpenetration.

As to hydrashoks, these rounds are not your best choice, by far, for self defense. Hydrashoks had, and continue to have, failures due to plugging and fragmentation, plus generally have fairly shallow penetration comparative to other, more modern designs.

Consider that the round has not been updated, to my knowledge, since the late 80s or so, and continues to suffer the same failures.
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  #464  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WMG-21 View Post
What about the RBCD ammo? Anyone have any real-world experience with that? (Preferably in .45 acp and even more preferably, as used in a 1911 platform).

There seems to be some controversy surrounding the round. In this copy of "American Cop" (click link below for the digital copy) a PD in Fla. started using the round after ballistics tests:

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...canCop/ACJA09/

But here, an industry analyst tears apart the round as nothing more than a high-velocity varmint round that's been disguised with some black moly:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888

Anyone have any personal experience with the round? A friend of mine gave me a magazines worth for "home defense" but now I wonder if I'd be better served with traditional ammo, either FMJ or JHP.
DocGKR, Doctor Gary Roberts, (whom some malign for his chosen profession of medicine following his career in the military as a dentist), Is well-recognized by many organizations, including the Military, as an expert on the topic of ballistics.

If his testing suggests the ammunition is a poor choice, I would tend to agree with his assessment.

Looking over the data he presents on analysis of the bullet, I would say it's clearly shown to be a marketing gimmick, much like most of the frangible or other ultralight ammunition.

In general, these rounds suffer catastrophic failures and fail to penetrate adequately, while doing less than adequate damage to tissue.

Remember, the key to stopping a threat reliably is to do significant enough trauma to the major cardiovascular systems (heart, lungs, etc.) and central nervous systems (brain, spine, etc). so as to mechanically shut down the body as rapidly as possible. The threat may cease before mechanical failure due to psychological reaction to the firearm or being shot, but this is far from reliable as proven in hundreds of shootings
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  #465  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:39 AM
mshenry2 mshenry2 is offline
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I have been using Hydra Shok rounds in my department duty weapon for over 20 years and have never had a misfeed . when you are in a fire fight at short range which almost all are shallow penitration is secondary to impact and and stopping power, in a stress fueled confrontation you are not thinking of center mass being it this day and age a lot of perps are using body armor so the head shot is sometimes needed so shallow penitration is perferred. Just remember every bullet has a lawyer attached to it and if you are taken to court you will be asked in court "Why did you use that type of bullet" have a good answer!
  #466  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshenry2 View Post
I have been using Hydra Shok rounds in my department duty weapon for over 20 years and have never had a misfeed . when you are in a fire fight at short range which almost all are shallow penitration is secondary to impact and and stopping power, in a stress fueled confrontation you are not thinking of center mass being it this day and age a lot of perps are using body armor so the head shot is sometimes needed so shallow penitration is perferred. Just remember every bullet has a lawyer attached to it and if you are taken to court you will be asked in court "Why did you use that type of bullet" have a good answer!
1. Stopping power is a myth. The only sure methods of stopping a threat is physical damage to the body, or the chance that the threat will react psychologically to the introduction of a firearm, or being shot. As a cop, I'm sure you know that.

2. Shallow Penetration is never preferred. A bullet has to penetrate deep enough to do enough damage to stop the threats, as well as make it past any ancillary barriers. For example, if the threat has his arms extended and your shot hits his arms, the bullet must penetrate deeply enough to pass through the arms, and then enter the body cavity. Many, many cases are documented of shallow-penetrating rounds stopping in the arms, leaving the threat a threat.

3. Adequate damage and acceptable effect on target are all that matter from a bullet. You as a shooter are responsible for determining when to use your firearm, and for staying alive. Anything that happens AFTER the gunfight is of no consequence to the moment you must respond to a threat and save your own or someone else's life.

With Hydrashoks and their proven failures against barriers and against heavy clothing, other options should be considered to ensure adequate, reliable performance *every time* on target.
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Last edited by DeltaKilo; 02-12-2012 at 10:52 AM.
  #467  
Old 02-12-2012, 11:13 AM
mshenry2 mshenry2 is offline
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Very well said, That is why I came on this site the members are well imformed and articulate in their answers. Thanks
  #468  
Old 05-09-2012, 07:09 AM
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Hydrashoks do have a reputation of "plugging up" when shooting through heavy winter clothing or sheetrock. So the result is similiar to hardball after plugging up. Not the best, but still works for me since I have nothing against hardball. Hydroshoks are a proven round and are not so much outdated, they're still around because they work great. I used to have a first shot as a speer 200 gr. "flying ashtray" in the chamber followed by hardball. The speers just didn't feed very well in my .45 at the time. Now, since my Defender doesn't like any HP design, I carry it with a HST in the chamber and hardball in the magazine. My Commander by the bed has HST ammo in it and Hydrashoks in the extra magazines. However....to each his own. I reload a lot, so I try to fire about 200 rounds a week at paper targets..... never had to see what I would do in a gunfight, won't know until (if) it happens.
  #469  
Old 05-09-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckfw View Post
Hydrashoks do have a reputation of "plugging up" when shooting through heavy winter clothing or sheetrock. So the result is similiar to hardball after plugging up. Not the best, but still works for me since I have nothing against hardball. Hydroshoks are a proven round and are not so much outdated, they're still around because they work great. I used to have a first shot as a speer 200 gr. "flying ashtray" in the chamber followed by hardball. The speers just didn't feed very well in my .45 at the time. Now, since my Defender doesn't like any HP design, I carry it with a HST in the chamber and hardball in the magazine. My Commander by the bed has HST ammo in it and Hydrashoks in the extra magazines. However....to each his own. I reload a lot, so I try to fire about 200 rounds a week at paper targets..... never had to see what I would do in a gunfight, won't know until (if) it happens.
Actually less proven than you might think. Aside from plugging, these loads also suffer fragmentation and shallow penetration. There are much better loads with a higher degree of effectiveness that based on real world performance and availability, there's no real reason to go with hydrashoks.
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  #470  
Old 05-10-2012, 01:17 AM
rab rab is offline
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JHPvsFMJ

The reason military doesn't use hp's is that it's against the Geneva Convention.
IMO, all the smaller calibers are doing whatever they can just to make a hole the size of a 45...

45cal 230gr JHP's are serious lead! Win Rangers and Rem Gldn Sabers are pretty close. Rangers are a little better. The bonded bullets seem to make a round ball. Heavy weights expand and drag the jacket with them. I did some testing for comparison.Click image for larger version

Name:	45winrngr230.jpg
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ID:	81378 (the slug on the far left was fired from a 3" barrel. The others are from 5". I'll look into this another time.) My favorite. Just a little better thanClick image for larger version

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As far as lighter weights, I fired a 40sw 155g Win Rngr, that flattened out to about the size of a nickel, and popped the jacket off like a little hat. You can't ask for more.Click image for larger version

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  #471  
Old 05-10-2012, 01:26 AM
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Seems that each Win Ranger contains a little Star of David, that when it enters a jihadis' body, it causes him to burst into flames. Kinda like vampires and silver, holy water or a wooden stake in the heart.......
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  #472  
Old 05-10-2012, 04:00 AM
Funguy Funguy is offline
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I'm no expert but the way I see it is that while a 9mm JHP might expand to .45ACP, the .45ACP FMJ will never shrink down to a 9mm. But I carry JHP because if I ever have to use them, I don't want them to over penetrate.

Disclaimer: I am not a 9mm hater, I happen to believe that it is a very capable and versatile round. But a big 'ol .45 it is not.
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  #473  
Old 05-10-2012, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Funguy View Post
I'm no expert but the way I see it is that while a 9mm JHP might expand to .45ACP, the .45ACP FMJ will never shrink down to a 9mm. But I carry JHP because if I ever have to use them, I don't want them to over penetrate.

Disclaimer: I am not a 9mm hater, I happen to believe that it is a very capable and versatile round. But a big 'ol .45 it is not.
This is true in theory, however, keep in mind that the way the bullet interacts with a pliable, elastic structure makes a huge difference. If the bullet is very hydrodynamic, it will stretch tissue more than if it's more blunt, and stretching MORE means that when it relaxes, the hole it leaves is smaller.
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  #474  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:23 PM
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Weather you choose ball or HP you must have confidence in the rounds ability to function in your weapon and in it's ability to do the intended job. The best way to achieve both of these goals is to buy different brands, bullet weights and bullet configurations in ball & hollow point and shoot until you find YOUR carry ammo.
What works in Joe's 3" Kimber may not work in yours.
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  #475  
Old 06-10-2012, 05:26 PM
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Beware rubber or nylon tipped hollowpoints in a .45.
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