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  #1  
Old 09-20-2010, 10:22 AM
Barbicatter Barbicatter is offline
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Recipes for 9mm 115 gr FMJ and W321?




I'm new to reloading so I rely a lot on experienced reloaders suggestions on technques, equipment, manuals and components.

I have a XL650 that is setup for 9mm. When I first setup I used Power Pistol in it and was displeased with the way it metered out of the Dillon Powder Measurer. I could never get the power pistol consistent. It was 0.1 over or under.
Several folks sang the praises of W231. I bought some W231 only to find the recipes are limited for 9mm and 115 gr FMJ's.
I settled on a Hornady recipe W231 4.3gr @ 1050fps, COAL 1.100" 115 FMJ.
I very happy with how the W231 metered through the Dillon, each dump right on the money 4.3 grains.

Being a newb and cautious all the loads that I have produced so far have been very wimpy.
My W231 4.3gr @ 1050fps, COAL 1.100" 115 FMJ recipe was the wimpiest yet. So wimpy it could barely push back the slides on my Kahrs and my CZs.
And well we won't discuss accuracy.

Since I have two pounds of W231, and it meters well though the Dillon. I'm considering bumping up my powder drops to 4.8gr @ 1150fps which is max load. What concerns me is what if I drop 0.1 over, which is likely with the Dillon Powder drop. Should I be concerned about going over 0.1 grains on a max load? Do the manuals have tolerances built in thier max loads for such a variance?

My goal to create a load that best mimics NATO factory ammo's like:
Sellier & Bellot Ammunition 9mm Luger 115 Grain FMJ @ 1280fps
Wolf Ammunition 9mm Luger 115 Grain FMJ @ 1150fps
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  #2  
Old 09-20-2010, 10:43 AM
orrwdd orrwdd is offline
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Don't Increase your load by a half grain at once. Whenever developing new loads, increase the load by 0.1 grain at a time. Load 10-15 of each and test fire until you get the velocity or accuracy you are looking for. You will probably find that somewhere around 4.6gr.

Read your manuals and learn the signs of excess pressure so you can look for them when testing your loads.

Reloading data is not a Recipe. You can not simply load the maximum load and assume that it is safe.

The manuals state a Maximum load, do not exceed them. Some folks are convinced that the loads in manuals are reduced and you can fudge, but if you do you will be at risk. Leave the extreme loads for later, after you have become proficient at reloading.

Also each maximum tested load is only good for the firearm it was developed in. The pressure issues will be different in different guns.

Be Safe

Bill
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  #3  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:20 AM
Nick A Nick A is offline
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Yay, Bill. Good advice.

NATO loads often exceed safe commercial and handload pressure. Be aware. And never use high velocity as a target, many powders (especially faster powders) are 'velocity challenged' and can only achieve high velocity at EXTREMELY DANGEROUS pressure. W231 is fairly forgiving, but in handloading it pays to be careful and patient until you learn your craft.

Max loads are very seldom accurate in my pistols. Although I have a 44mag Blackhawk with a long barrel that seems to thrive on max loads. I put a scope on it for mule deer hunts.

Accuracy in your pistol will be different than mine, you must work up until you find the sweet spot. You will never get the powders they use for Wolf and NATO ammo, so the sweet spot may be at slightly different velocity than theirs.
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2010, 12:12 PM
Barbicatter Barbicatter is offline
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Thank you for your reply..... I do understand that these are not recipes; excuse me for my poor terminology.

However, I getting frustrated. Trying to find additional Load Data for 9mm 115 FMJ RN and W231. For a powder that was originally designed for Pistols there’s to be very little data or no data available on for the 9mm 115 gr FMJ bullets.
Quoted from www.wwpowder.com W 231:"One of the most popular reload propellants, 231 is a pistol powder ideally suited to the 38 special, 45 Auto, and 9mm standard loads. Consistency, clean burning, low flash, and a broad range of applications make this powder a choice for any pistol cartridge reloader."
Yet they offer zero load data for 115 gr FMJ RN bullet, which seem to be a very popular bullet weight for 9mm since everyone makes one including Winchester. (I will rant about .45 230 gr FMJ later) My Lyman book doesn't even list a 115g gr FMJ RN. The Gun Guides reloading Guide for Pistols has zero information for 9mm 115 gr FMJ RN and W231 was of paper.
Hornady, Sierra, and Lee all show different COALs 1.10 to 1.075, which means they also show different grain weights and velocities too.

Where is info to create a Factory loads? All the factory ammo I measured for 115 gr is 1.160" to 1.470". Max OAL being 1.169". All want to do is to make safe plinking ammo that goes bang out my seven unmodified, untuned, straight out of the box 9mm semi-autos. Once I figure that out then I might work on accuracy loads for a specific firearm. I would even be happy with standard factory loadings. I only listed the nato factory ammos because it seemed that everybody in our safe to like it. The CZ's seem to have tighter groups with it, over my wimpy loads and standard WWB.

That all being said. Thanks you for letting me vent. I will take your suggestion and bump it up 0.1 grain at a time. I will make sure I don't go over 4.6 grains to keep from exceeding the max load due a possible powder drop variance
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  #5  
Old 09-20-2010, 12:39 PM
RealGun RealGun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbicatter View Post
Trying to find additional Load Data for 9mm 115 FMJ RN and W231. For a powder that was originally designed for Pistols there’s to be very little data or no data available on for the 9mm 115 gr FMJ bullets.
The Hodgdon site shows 115 GR. SPR GDHP at 1.125 spanning 4.7 gr-5.1gr of W231. The Lee book shows the same charge and OAL for 115 gr FMJ RN for HP-38. Lee shows 4.3-4.8 for W231 at 1.095.

Indications from the Lee book are that the velocity over 1200 will come from Power Pistol.

I noted loads for HP-38 alongside W231, which internet factoids say are now the same powder. The load data appears that historically the loads were slightly different. The point though is that you should look for both W231 and HP-38 loads.

Last edited by RealGun; 09-20-2010 at 02:40 PM. Reason: clarification
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  #6  
Old 09-20-2010, 12:45 PM
MSgt Dotson MSgt Dotson is offline
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I use 4.8 gr of 231 with 115 gr FMJ, successful for several thousands of rounds....; brass deposited neatly 2-3 feet to the right....
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  #7  
Old 09-20-2010, 01:57 PM
Barbicatter Barbicatter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealGun View Post
The Hodgdon site shows the same load for 115 GR. SPR GDHP as the Lee book does for 115 gr FMJ RN, spanning 4.7 gr-5.1gr at 1.125.

Indications from the Lee book are that the velocity over 1200 will come from Power Pistol.

I noted loads for HP-38 alongside W231, which internet factoids say are now the same powder. The load data appears that historically the loads were slightly different. The point though is that you should look for both W231 and HP-38 loads.
Which edition Lee? I believe mine states 1.09" COAL for W231 Now Lee listed other powders at 1.125 lenghts. This all by memory, the books are at home.

Yes, Hodgdon/Winchester Reloading Data Manuals show the same exact info for hp-38 and W 231. Still they list every combination except W231 or HP-38 for 115 FMJ RN. Frustrating


Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt Dotson View Post
I use 4.8 gr of 231 with 115 gr FMJ, successful for several thousands of rounds....; brass deposited neatly 2-3 feet to the right....
This gives me hope that i achive what I want from W231. I will stick to my plan a bump it up 0.1 grain until I find the sweet spot, and not exceed the max load.
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  #8  
Old 09-20-2010, 02:42 PM
RealGun RealGun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbicatter View Post
Which edition Lee? I believe mine states 1.09" COAL for W231 Now Lee listed other powders at 1.125 lenghts. This all by memory, the books are at home.
I edited my post as follows:

The Hodgdon site shows 115 GR. SPR GDHP at 1.125 spanning 4.7 gr-5.1gr of W231. The Lee book shows the same charge and OAL for 115 gr FMJ RN for HP-38. Lee shows 4.3-4.8 for W231 at 1.095.
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  #9  
Old 09-20-2010, 02:44 PM
RH45 RH45 is offline
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When I used 115 fmj bullets with 231 behind them, I needed 5 grains to get my SIG 226 to run, and, if I remember correctly, they were only about 130pf.

We had a kid come through the chrono stage at the 2009 Wisconsin USPSA sectionals with only 4.6 of 231 behind a 115 grain bullet, and he ended up just shooting the match for fun because he didn't make 125pf with his load.
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  #10  
Old 09-20-2010, 03:18 PM
CherokeeT CherokeeT is offline
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4.5 of 231 with Star 115 FMJ @ 1.125" OAL works fine in two of my 9mm's but is a 3-4" 25 yd group load.
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  #11  
Old 09-20-2010, 03:57 PM
noylj noylj is offline
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I have a XL650 that is setup for 9mm. When I first setup I used Power Pistol in it and was displeased with the way it metered out of the Dillon Powder Measurer. I could never get the power pistol consistent. It was 0.1 over or under.

That is what they mean by ±0.1gn tolerance. You aren't going to get any better unless you decide to weigh each charge. Did any of your reloading manuals tell you that you would or needed to get better than ±0.1gn?
Sorry, but you are getting as good as you are going to get.
Buy an RCBS ChargeMaster and throw back every charge that is 0.1gn more than you want.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-2010, 05:11 PM
Barbicatter Barbicatter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noylj View Post
That is what they mean by ±0.1gn tolerance. You aren't going to get any better unless you decide to weigh each charge. Did any of your reloading manuals tell you that you would or needed to get better than ±0.1gn?
Sorry, but you are getting as good as you are going to get.
Buy an RCBS ChargeMaster and throw back every charge that is 0.1gn more than you want.
I'm not expecting the machine to preform any better than it's given tolerances. I was simply trying to relate that the W231 meters more consistantly than the Powerpistol for me.
When I was considering using the Max Load that's when I became concerned with ±0.1grain tolerance of the powder measure. Not that I'm asking the machine to do any better. More so I need to take ±0.1grain tolerance into account when choosing my load data.

Last edited by Barbicatter; 09-21-2010 at 07:22 AM. Reason: I really need to do a better job of proof reading
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  #13  
Old 09-20-2010, 06:29 PM
Barbicatter Barbicatter is offline
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This is what a get for quoting information from memory. I was using Sierra Data not Hornady. The 4.8 max load came from Lee. Sorry gents looks like Much Ado About Nothing. I believe I can achieve my goals with the Sierra Data. Here is the correct data straight from the Manuals:

Sierra Data for 115 grain FMJ:
W231 4.3 grains @ 1050 fps 1.100 COAL - My first loads
W231 4.8 grains @ 1100 fps 1.100 COAL - Desired
W231 5.3 grains @ 1150 fps 1.100 COAL - Max Load

Hornady Data for 115 grain FMJ:
W231 4.1 grains @ 1000 fps 1.100 COAL - Starting
W231 4.4 grains @ 1050 fps 1.100 COAL
W231 4.7 grains @ 1100 fps 1.100 COAL - Max Load

Lee Data for 115 grain FMJ:
W231 4.3 grains @ 1010 fps 1.095 COAL - Starting
W231 4.8 grains @ 1120 fps 1.095 COAL - Max Load


Thanks eveyone.

Last edited by Barbicatter; 09-20-2010 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Fixed Typo - Again
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2010, 06:47 PM
RealGun RealGun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbicatter View Post
This is what a get for quoting information from memory. I was using Sierra Data not Hornady. The 4.8 max load came from Lee. Sorry gents looks like Much Ado About Nothing. I believe I can achieve my goals with the Sierra Data. Here is the correct data straight from the Manuals:

Sierra Data for 115 grain FMJ:
W231 4.3 grains @ 1050 fps 1.100 COAL - My first loads
W231 4.8 grains @ 1100 fps 1.100 COAL - Desired
W231 5.3 grains @ 1150 fps 1.100 COAL - Max Load

Hornady Data for 115 grain FMJ:
W231 4.1 grains @ 1000 fps 1.075 COAL - Starting
W231 4.4 grains @ 1050 fps 1.075 COAL
W231 4.7 grains @ 1100 fps 1.075 COAL - Max Load

Lee Data for 115 grain FMJ:
W231 4.1 grains @ 1010 fps 1.095 COAL - Starting
W231 4.8 grains @ 1120 fps 1.095 COAL - Max Load


Thanks eveyone.
Sorry, but Lee second edition shows it as I reported at 4.3 -4.8
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  #15  
Old 09-20-2010, 06:52 PM
HotRodSprint HotRodSprint is online now
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I reload my 9mm (115 fmj) w/4.7 gr. HP-38 (same as W231) and a COAL of 1.135
(per page 853 of Speer manual #14)

I`ve shot over a 1000 rds. of this load through my bone stock 2nd. gen Glock 19 and Beretta 9mm Storm Carbine without any problem.
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  #16  
Old 09-20-2010, 08:06 PM
Barbicatter Barbicatter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealGun View Post
Sorry, but Lee second edition shows it as I reported at 4.3 -4.8
Thanks, I corrected my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodSprint View Post
I reload my 9mm (115 fmj) w/4.7 gr. HP-38 (same as W231) and a COAL of 1.135
(per page 853 of Speer manual #14)

I`ve shot over a 1000 rds. of this load through my bone stock 2nd. gen Glock 19 and Beretta 9mm Storm Carbine without any problem.
Thanks, I may need to add a Speer to my manual collection.
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2010, 08:51 PM
Cappi Cappi is offline
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Hornady manual lists a 1.10 OAL for 115 FMJ.
The 1.075 OAl is for their XTP-HP


if you want to achieve max velocity at safe pressures, go back to Power Pistol.

a tenth of a grain variance won't blow your pistol up ...unless you're already flirting with disaster and are WELL over safe pressures from the get go


..L.T.A.
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  #18  
Old 09-20-2010, 09:16 PM
orrwdd orrwdd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbicatter View Post
I will stick to my plan a bump it up 0.1 grain until I find the sweet spot, and not exceed the max load.
That's the ticket. Don't worry about what the various manuals say other than to establish the Starting and Max loads. Work up the load to an acceptable level and then it should work in your multiple guns. I find most of my favorite loads are about 60% between Starting and Max.

Bill
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  #19  
Old 09-21-2010, 01:26 PM
TonyT TonyT is offline
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I have always used the powder manufacturers pressure tested data. Plenty of W-231 data on the Hodgdon website.
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  #20  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:06 PM
lmcgrew79 lmcgrew79 is offline
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Ive got back from the range. 9mm Beretta 92FS Inox
Here are my results
115g Montana Gold RN
1.15 Oal
w231 In All Loads But One
4.4 1102 Av FPS Seemed to hold tightest groups
4.6 1146 Av FPS Probably the worst Groups
4.8 1163 AV FPS Better than 4.6 Not as good as 4.4
5.0 1240 AV FPS On par with 4.4 Very Tight Groups Massive jump in FPS

I think ill load at 4.4 maybe try 4.5
Seems the hotter shot better but i dont care for the monster jump. Didnt recoil much more either way.
4.4 Tight Group. 1146 Average FPS Didnt seem very accurate.
Federal Factory Ammo shot within the same frame
1135 Av FPS. Grouped on par with 5.0 and or 4.4

Last edited by lmcgrew79; 03-13-2011 at 10:11 PM.
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  #21  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:21 AM
UrbanSI UrbanSI is offline
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I load 4.5g of HP-38 @1.144 with a 115g FMJ. Shoots very clean and accurate from my CZ. Recoil is on par with factory federal, maybe a hair less.

Clean/accurate/cheap...Not much more to ask for
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  #22  
Old 03-14-2011, 06:26 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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odd

I've used hundreds of lbs of Power Pistol through numerous Dillon measures without issue.
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  #23  
Old 03-14-2011, 07:49 AM
Hammerdown77 Hammerdown77 is offline
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It's interesting to me that you guys have had good results and reliable operation with charges below 4.5 grains. The first load I tried was 4.6 grains under a 115 gr. Rainier plated bullet. In my Glock 19, every now and then it would have what looked like a bolt over base mis-feed. Factory ammo functioned 100%. Loads using Power Pistol or HS-6 functioned 100%. I bumped the charge up to 4.9-5.0 grains and the mis-feeds stopped. Guess I was on the ragged edge of full rearward slide travel or something. This was a relatively new factory recoil spring, though.
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  #24  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:12 AM
dickenscpa dickenscpa is offline
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Count me in as another success below 4.5g of 231. My 38spl and 9mm loads were the first two I got consistant.

I'm shooting a Berry's plated RN with 4.3g of Win231 and an OAL of 1.135". I'm shooting this out of a Ruger P95 and it cycles and feeds just find. My 9mm is not a carry gun and just plinking at the range for fun. Lightest consistant load was all I was looking for.

I will add that I did my first batch of 9mm at 3.8g of W231 and it would absolutely not cycle the slide. I was just begining to reload and was leery of the plated bullets. Found some published info on lead and used the minimum charge. Shot 7 rnds one at a time.

That was a wonderful lesson right off the bat to not make first time loads in a large batch. Hammer pulling all those rnds taught me a lesson.

Brad
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  #25  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:39 PM
lmcgrew79 lmcgrew79 is offline
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4.4 was my lowest load i when ahead and worked up 4.5 w231 about 300 rounds this evening. the 92 fs would probably eject even a squib with the open slide, but never the less all the brass from each load was landing in the same area.
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