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  #1  
Old 09-07-2010, 09:28 PM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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Need Gold Dot Help




First time poster in Reloading section. I've been reloading since 1991.

I need some loading info for my 45 ACP's I would like to give some Gold Dots a try. I have loaded 45 ACP alot but never have I used Speer Gold Dots. I have both 185 gr. and 200gr. bullets on the way ( I could not find any 230 gr.). What is a good starting load and a good defence load? The powders I have on hand are IMR 700X, Win. 231, and Bullseye.
The manuals I have are Speer #12, Sierra 3rd,Lyman 46th &49th, and Hornady 7th.
Thanks for the help.
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  #2  
Old 09-07-2010, 11:18 PM
rg1 rg1 is offline
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I recommend checking out Alliant's reloading data found on-line. They have data for Bullseye, Unique, Power Pistol, AM Select, and Blue Dot loads with the Gold Dot bullet. All owned by the parent company ATK-- bullets and powder . I've used the Unique data for 9MM 124gr Gold Dots but worked up and stopped before I got to their maximum listed data. At least you can compare Alliant's data with your present manuals.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...aspx?gtypeid=1

Last edited by rg1; 09-07-2010 at 11:23 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2010, 02:47 AM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye45 View Post
First time poster in Reloading section. I've been reloading since 1991.

I need some loading info for my 45 ACP's I would like to give some Gold Dots a try. I have loaded 45 ACP alot but never have I used Speer Gold Dots. I have both 185 gr. and 200gr. bullets on the way ( I could not find any 230 gr.). What is a good starting load and a good defence load? The powders I have on hand are IMR 700X, Win. 231, and Bullseye.
The manuals I have are Speer #12, Sierra 3rd,Lyman 46th &49th, and Hornady 7th.
Thanks for the help.


The Lyman 49th and Hornady 7th are the most recent in published data.
I would start with these two or use the most updated data available as many of the powders used have been updated as well.

It is interesting that in the Lyman 49 they have as there “potentially most accurate” load using the 200gr. GDHP part No. 4478 a Maximum load of 5.7grs. of Bullseye
Why not take a look at the Lyman, they have data listed for all the powders that you mentioned you have.
Lyman uses the Hornady 185gr XTP in they’re testing but has data for the185 XTP with all of your powders as well.

I tossed my Speer #12 manual many years ago; it’s also worth noting Speer updated the testing protocols for the #13 and #14 editions.

The Hornady manual may be helpful but as is the obvious they will be using Hornady bullets with the data.

For accuracy I would begin with some of the starting charge weights of the powders you have and just work up.
You may find some accuracy magic along the way as you approach the “defensive” velocity ranges.

If it was just for all out speed I would be using different powders than you have
I would be stuffing the cases with powders like AA No.5, Power Pistol, V-V N350, AA No.7 and Longshot
These slower powders will really get the 185 and 200 grainers zinging along in the 1000 to 1150 f.p.s. range and keep the pressure civilized.

Good Luck
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  #4  
Old 09-08-2010, 06:54 PM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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Thanks for the info rg1 and TheGerk, Gerk before you tossed your Speer #12 did you compare it with #14 edition? If so is there alot of changes between the two, if so it might be a good idea for me to fork out the $29.95 for the #14. I noticed very little changes in Lyman 46th - 49th on the starting or max powder wts. for example my favorite 280 Rem. load =150 gr. Sierra BT. sptz. with 52gr.of IMR 4350, #210 primers ,which is close to the 52.5 gr. max listed in both 46th & 49th no change in data at all.The funny thing Sierra handbook lists 54.9 grs. max. for IMR-4350. I guess that's why we start low and work our way up.

Back to the 45 ACP Gold Dot load of 185 gr GD-HP would a starting load of 4.7 grains of Bullseye be to far out of line? The Lyman 49th starts at 3.5 grains of Bullseye and the Speer #12 starts out with a low of 5.7 grains of Bullseye for the same weight of bullet which is for a Speer Gold dot, the new Lyman is using a Hornady 185 HP/XTP. Does the bullet make that much difference? Will 3.5 grain of Bullseye be enough to get the 185 gr. Gold Dot out of the barrel?
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  #5  
Old 09-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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I know I should toss the #12 but It's so hard for me to do.
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  #6  
Old 09-08-2010, 07:27 PM
MSgt Dotson MSgt Dotson is offline
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Hodgdon's website shows between 5.2-5.9 gr of 231 for 200 gr SPR JHP, with 794fps/900+ fps, respectively.....; if trying to replicate defensive loadings, I'd likely be right near max, which seems relatively conservative considering older 231 loadings.. (I'd not be using 20 yr old brass for such max loadings)

For safety, you could start at 5.6 gr, work your way to 5.9 gr....

You would likely need a slower powder if you need more velocity. (to me, 900 fps seems fine)

Last edited by MSgt Dotson; 09-08-2010 at 07:31 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-09-2010, 03:12 PM
TheGerk TheGerk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye45 View Post
Thanks for the info rg1 and TheGerk, Gerk before you tossed your Speer #12 did you compare it with #14 edition? If so is there alot of changes between the two, if so it might be a good idea for me to fork out the $29.95 for the #14. I noticed very little changes in Lyman 46th - 49th on the starting or max powder wts. for example my favorite 280 Rem. load =150 gr. Sierra BT. sptz. with 52gr.of IMR 4350, #210 primers ,which is close to the 52.5 gr. max listed in both 46th & 49th no change in data at all.The funny thing Sierra handbook lists 54.9 grs. max. for IMR-4350. I guess that's why we start low and work our way up.

Back to the 45 ACP Gold Dot load of 185 gr GD-HP would a starting load of 4.7 grains of Bullseye be to far out of line? The Lyman 49th starts at 3.5 grains of Bullseye and the Speer #12 starts out with a low of 5.7 grains of Bullseye for the same weight of bullet which is for a Speer Gold dot, the new Lyman is using a Hornady 185 HP/XTP. Does the bullet make that much difference? Will 3.5 grain of Bullseye be enough to get the 185 gr. Gold Dot out of the barrel?
Thanks for the info rg1 and TheGerk, Gerk before you tossed your Speer #12 did you compare it with #14 edition? If so is there alot of changes between the two, if so it might be a good idea for me to fork out the $29.95 for the #14. I noticed very little changes in Lyman 46th - 49th on the starting or max powder wts. for example my favorite 280 Rem. load =150 gr. Sierra BT. sptz. with 52gr.of IMR 4350, #210 primers ,which is close to the 52.5 gr. max listed in both 46th & 49th no change in data at all.The funny thing Sierra handbook lists 54.9 grs. max. for IMR-4350. I guess that's why we start low and work our way up.

I probably did with several loads (compare) but I do not recall now it’s been so long ago.
Yes, that’s one reason we use the work up rule as all the developers will have variances in there data due to a host of legitimate reasons

Back to the 45 ACP Gold Dot load of 185 gr GD-HP would a starting load of 4.7 grains of Bullseye be to far out of line? The Lyman 49th starts at 3.5 grains of Bullseye and the Speer #12 starts out with a low of 5.7 grains of Bullseye for the same weight of bullet which is for a Speer Gold dot, the new Lyman is using a Hornady 185 HP/XTP. Does the bullet make that much difference? Will 3.5 grain of Bullseye be enough to get the 185 gr. Gold Dot out of the barrel?

Yes, 3.5grs. of Bulleye will pop the little 185 grainer out of the barrel, at this low velocity though you may have cycling issues with a heavily sprung gun but it will shoot them.

Another reason you want to use the up to date published data is they are using newer production powders like you would be using.
Over time these powders (as well as Bullets in many cases) get “improved” or modified.
Sometimes manufactures feel no need to broadcast this aspect.
(For example, if they already state the powder is low flash and make an improvement in the flash signature they may feel it not necessary to inform you of this)
New published data reflects these changes and is also completed with more advanced testing equipment. I would use the newer data if available
Good Luck
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To be proficient with Firearms the endeavor must be applied similarly as in Golf or Boxing, you have to put the Rounds in! - Gerk

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  #8  
Old 09-11-2010, 07:48 PM
Somerled Somerled is offline
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+1 on the reloading data at www.alliantpowder.com

Alliant customer service also good at answering e-mails. I received some good information from a ballistician there when I was developing some .357 Sig loads.

Then check out Hodgdon's data:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Last edited by Somerled; 09-11-2010 at 07:52 PM.
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  #9  
Old 09-11-2010, 09:52 PM
Atlanta1911 Atlanta1911 is offline
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IMHO if you want SD loads then go buy them. If you want to practice SD targeting and need some loads similar to factory loads, then by all means reload away. I say this because the SD ammo market is a HIGHLY competitive, multi-million dollar market and I'd bet you cannot come anywhere near duplicating their load at home. It is quite possible that to get their perfect ballistics, that Speer is blending powders or importing powders from Europe that are not even sold in the US. After all, if you can duplicate their load then so could Hornady and Winchester, who could price their duplicate product 5 cents cheaper and steal the sales from Speer.
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  #10  
Old 09-12-2010, 08:35 AM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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Thanks again for all the input. Atlanta1911 I would have to agree with what you stated it's makes alot of sense. I think I can get close to factory performance with the powders out there but I don't know or have the equipment to find out. If it is a matter of 50f.p.s. in vel. is it going to make that much difference,again I don't know, have to leave that one to the experts.

I went to three different powder co. websites and here's some of what I found out.

Alliant Powder. 185 gr. GDHP at 6.4 gr. Bullseye Max = 986 fps.
200gr. at 5.8 gr. Bullseye Max = 934 fps.


Accurate Powder. 185 gr. Sierra JHP- Start at 11.7 gr. AA#7 =962 fps.
Max at 13 gr. AA#7 = 1,093 fps.

200gr.HDY XTP- Start at 10.8 gr. AA#7 = 912 fps.
Max at 12 gr. AA#7 = 1036 fps.

Hodgdon Powder. 185 gr.HDY JSWC- Start at 5 gr. W231 =762 fps.
Max at 5.9 gr.W231 = 906 fps.

200 gr. SPR JHP - Start at 5.2 gr. W231 = 794 fps.
Max at 5.9 gr. W231 =906 fps.

185 gr. HDY JSWC Start at 4.9gr. IMR 700X = 873 fps.
Max at 5.5 gr. IMR 700X = 959 fps.

200 gr. SPR JHP Start at 4.8 gr. IMR 700X = 844 fps.
Max at 5.3 gr. IMR 700X= 911 fps.

This data shows the point TheGerk made about the need for a slower burning powder like AA#7 to get the speed needed for a good defence load without having to push the max powder charges listed. It looks like I need to find some AA#7 and try it also. Bullseye with the 185 gr. bullet at max is moving along fairly well at 986 fps. as is IMR 700X with 185 gr. bullet at max = 959 fps. Why no love for IMR 700X?
Finding Accurate powders close to my home is difficult at best. I have a Cabella's 30 mins. away but for some reason they only handle AA#7 & AA#2 but NO AA#5? I could order some, but hate to pay the $ 25.00 for Haz. shipping.Im going to see if Cabella's have any AA#7 in stock tomorrow and a Speer #14. Also still waiting on my Gold Dots, . It's like somebody out there doesn't want to make it easy for us to reload anymore?
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  #11  
Old 09-12-2010, 08:47 AM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt Dotson View Post
Hodgdon's website shows between 5.2-5.9 gr of 231 for 200 gr SPR JHP, with 794fps/900+ fps, respectively.....; if trying to replicate defensive loadings, I'd likely be right near max, which seems relatively conservative considering older 231 loadings.. (I'd not be using 20 yr old brass for such max loadings)

For safety, you could start at 5.6 gr, work your way to 5.9 gr....

You would likely need a slower powder if you need more velocity. (to me, 900 fps seems fine)
MSgt has a good point is more than 900fps. all that necessary?
I think alot of range practice and shot placement will make up for 100 more fps. ?
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  #12  
Old 09-12-2010, 10:54 AM
Atlanta1911 Atlanta1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye45 View Post
Atlanta1911 I would have to agree with what you stated it's makes a lot of sense. I think I can get close to factory performance with the powders out there but I don't know or have the equipment to find out. If it is a matter of 50f.p.s. in vel. is it going to make that much difference,again I don't know, have to leave that one to the experts.
I'm certainly no expert myself, but I do know that the FBI and other large volume LE buyers are looking for a fixed amount of penetration through various clothing configurations, including other objects like windshields, etc. This so the perp dies with a bullet in him/her, rather than going on through and hitting bystanders. So it is NOT merely a matter of gaining the highest velocity as one might first assume. SD ammo is a full time job for numerous engineers and ballisticians who work on nothing else. For this reason I wouldn't buy European SD ammo on a bet. They simply don't have the market to support such a research investment.

Your slower burning powders are not only going to result in higher velocities but will also be much more comfortable to shoot. This since the bullet is being "pushed" rather than abruptly "shocked" into movement. Something approximately in the #28 to #37 range on this chart... http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

All the best.
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Last edited by Atlanta1911; 09-12-2010 at 11:21 AM.
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  #13  
Old 09-12-2010, 11:52 AM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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When I use a new bullet, I always try to use the bullet manufacturers manual. I figure they should know what's best for their bullets.


From the Speer #14 manual.

with a 0.451 200 gr GDHP

Bullseye powder 5.2 - 5.8

W231 powder 5.6 - 6.3

no load data for IMR 700-X


with a 0.451 185 GDHP

Bullseye powder 5.7 - 6.4

W231 powder 6.6 - 7.4

700-X powder 5.8 - 6.5

.....as with any load you obtain from the internet, I suggest you verify with a published manual just in case I screwed up.
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  #14  
Old 09-12-2010, 04:44 PM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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Atlanta1911. I really appreciate the help, you are teaching me alot of usefull info. I will have to give the slower burning powders a try,I need to listen to what you and TheGerk are telling me. A slower burning powder= more velocity + a more comfortable round to shot which in turn should = better groups.

buck460XVR ,That's what I was looking for. After looking at my Speer #12 the data from Speer #14 manual is (in this case) a carbon copy of Speer #12 data. Thanks.
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  #15  
Old 09-15-2010, 01:07 PM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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I was able to pickup some different powder last week at Cabella's, they had Hodgdons Longshot, HS-6, and Tite Group. So I got busy and loaded up 11 different loadings using six different powders,the three Hodgdons listed and Bullseye,IMR 700X, and Win. 231. I loaded the 200 gr. GDHP's first because those were set to me first. The pictures show loads and results from todays trip to the range. all rounds were fired from my Kimber Custom II at 12 yrds. off of sand bags.

Again thanks to everybody for all the great input.
Attached Thumbnails
Gold Dot 9,8.jpg   Gold Dot 11,10.jpg   Gold Dot 13,12.jpg   Gold Dot 15,14.jpg   Gold Dot 17,16.jpg  
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  #16  
Old 09-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Buckeye45 Buckeye45 is offline
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One last picture. Every round cycled and fired with no problems.
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Gold Dot 18.jpg  
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