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  #1  
Old 07-15-2010, 11:05 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Shooting Low and Left....




Hey everyone...

Went to shooting today... one club has a mock USPSA course setup... not scored the same and they use bowling pins and steel poppers more than paper.. figured I'd run through it since I can't make it to the match this weekend.

Well... I was quite disappointed today as I consistantly hit low left... I was going to war with the steel at 15yds and I could see myself missing low left... I would adjust by aiming high right.

Heres the problem... I don't always shoot low left.... when I go to the range and am slow firing at paper... I will shoot low left and I will group a hole low left... at 21 ft it will be maybe 2 inches low 1-2" left... this will happen..and then the next mag I will shoot it won't, direct bullseye, nice one hole group... it drives me insane.... but what is worst of all... in real matches... I have NO issues hitting point of aim... I will average 80%+ A hits... on most the stages... and I will hit the middle of the A zone for the most part... not the low left... I shoot pretty well for a beginner in matches I think...

So how do I cure this issue.. I heard people saying its trigger jerk... but if I was doing trigger jerk I would be consistantly hitting low left and probably not grouping as well as I do.

I have a kimber desert warrior w/ a hogue wrap around grip.

Any help/drills would be great... I plan to go to the range Saturday morning to iron this issue out once and for all.. its just when I do go.. I shoot fine.. but when I go with the mentality I'll shoot fine, I shoot low left...and in matches I will shoot fine...

MIke.
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:10 PM
solid state solid state is offline
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Are you right handed? If so you could be using too much trigger finger. Take your unloaded pistol, then make sure it is unloaded, and after you check if it is unloaded, point it in a safe direction and watch the dynamics of your trigger pull.

If you are not pulling straight back and you are using too much finger you will see the pistol push in that direction. Under time it is just exacerbated.
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:16 AM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
Hey everyone...

Well... I was quite disappointed today as I consistantly hit low left... I was going to war with the steel at 15yds and I could see myself missing low left... I would adjust by aiming high right.

MIke.
The fact that you can SEE your missing means you not looking at your sights but watching the target. Forget the target. Trust you sights and press. Look at the target AFTER your done shooting.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:31 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
The fact that you can SEE your missing means you not looking at your sights but watching the target. Forget the target. Trust you sights and press. Look at the target AFTER your done shooting.
I shouldn't say I'm "looking" at the target... I am more so calling the shots/knowing they are hitting there from where the gun is/the feel. I guess its hard to explain... but thats not the issue.

MIke.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:10 AM
Horoscope Fish Horoscope Fish is offline
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Sounds like you might be over-thinking it when shooting on paper. I know under match pressure I tend to shoot more instinctively which, really, I think is the key: Letting the subconscious take over at the critical moment and allowing the shot to break.
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Old 07-16-2010, 10:39 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Originally Posted by Horoscope Fish View Post
Sounds like you might be over-thinking it when shooting on paper. I know under match pressure I tend to shoot more instinctively which, really, I think is the key: Letting the subconscious take over at the critical moment and allowing the shot to break.
It only happens with the 1911 though.. my revolver I am dead on.. I heard people say trigger jerk.. but I know its not that as I am not scared/suprised by the recoil... I did mess around with the "wall drill" last night.. I can't really tell (maybe a little) if I am twisting the gun by using too much trigger finger... I "might" be but it doesn't seen very obvious and my mind subconiously corrected this when I saw myself doing it.

I guess I'll mess around with it at the range tomorrow.

Mike.
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Old 07-16-2010, 10:50 AM
bdavis385 bdavis385 is offline
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If you are shooting low and left, and doing it mainly when you are trying to shoot this stage YOU ARE WANKING THE TRIGGER.
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  #8  
Old 07-16-2010, 10:56 AM
gregj gregj is offline
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Try shooting from a rest, if you still shoot low/left, try shooting with your weak hand (left hand, assuming you are right handed). You might also let someone else shoot it and see what it does for them. You might also try different ammo.
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:22 AM
Hardbawl Hardbawl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
I shouldn't say I'm "looking" at the target... I am more so calling the shots/knowing they are hitting there from where the gun is/the feel. I guess its hard to explain... but thats not the issue.

MIke.
Mike: You are thinking too much, and trying too hard. Relax, remember that shooting is a martial art and it takes practice. We can think we are doing all things correctly but our bodies fool us.

Remember that sometimes your shots drill the bullseye, so we can assume that your pistol is adaquately sighted in. Remember that if we are relaxed and touch a shot off with thoes sights aligned, the bullet will fly true.

But, also remember, that a .45 slug takes time to get all the way out of the barrel and unless that barrel is still pointing at the bullseye the instant the bullet leaves, a miss will happen. What happens to us is that after we pull the trigger we move before the bullet is actually out of the barrel. This happens to every honest shooter out there. It is not just your problem.

So, here is what I do: First, remember that shooting is a martial art. So I analyze my shooting stance. Is it balanced. Way too many shooters are leaning forward, with there hands streached out in front. This unballanced position puts stress on your pack and makes you tense when you shoot.

Put 70% of your weight on your right foot [for a right handed shooter] so when you extend your arms you are balanced. You are not tense. As your sights line up on the bull, push forward slightly with your right hand while pulling back [again lightly] with your left. Your sights will stop moving. Pull the trigger only with your right index finger. Fight the impulse to squeeze your whole hand. Hold on target until the smoke clears.

So, the drill is: stance, raise your pistol, get sight picture, push -pull, bang. After the follow through, relax, let your hands come to your sides. Think "relax". Then do the whole thing again exactly the same. When you have a routine that works for you shooting slowly, then you can add some speed.

There are several things that can cause you to shoot low/left. But they are all related to tensing up during the delivery of the shot. A good coach could help you a lot, but the doing is up to you. Think, stay balanced, and control the tension.
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2010, 11:47 AM
SuHu SuHu is offline
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Possibly anticipating recoil. Right handed people push the gun left and down.

Check this by firing off a mag or two, then start dry firing with a friend watching carefully.
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  #11  
Old 07-16-2010, 11:52 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardbawl View Post
Mike: You are thinking too much, and trying too hard. Relax, remember that shooting is a martial art and it takes practice. We can think we are doing all things correctly but our bodies fool us.

Remember that sometimes your shots drill the bullseye, so we can assume that your pistol is adaquately sighted in. Remember that if we are relaxed and touch a shot off with thoes sights aligned, the bullet will fly true.

But, also remember, that a .45 slug takes time to get all the way out of the barrel and unless that barrel is still pointing at the bullseye the instant the bullet leaves, a miss will happen. What happens to us is that after we pull the trigger we move before the bullet is actually out of the barrel. This happens to every honest shooter out there. It is not just your problem.

So, here is what I do: First, remember that shooting is a martial art. So I analyze my shooting stance. Is it balanced. Way too many shooters are leaning forward, with there hands streached out in front. This unballanced position puts stress on your pack and makes you tense when you shoot.

Put 70% of your weight on your right foot [for a right handed shooter] so when you extend your arms you are balanced. You are not tense. As your sights line up on the bull, push forward slightly with your right hand while pulling back [again lightly] with your left. Your sights will stop moving. Pull the trigger only with your right index finger. Fight the impulse to squeeze your whole hand. Hold on target until the smoke clears.

So, the drill is: stance, raise your pistol, get sight picture, push -pull, bang. After the follow through, relax, let your hands come to your sides. Think "relax". Then do the whole thing again exactly the same. When you have a routine that works for you shooting slowly, then you can add some speed.

There are several things that can cause you to shoot low/left. But they are all related to tensing up during the delivery of the shot. A good coach could help you a lot, but the doing is up to you. Think, stay balanced, and control the tension.
Yup.. the stance/hand push-pull is exactly what I do... I think the "thinking" is really what throws me off...

Shooting under time/movement is definitely a complete martial arts type thing... Every time I shoot a match... and I do good I always try to do a recap in my head of what I did and how/why it went good... I can't think of what I did... I just "did it", the subconscience takes over, where as when I shoot and do bad I will be like, yup, I swung the gun out too far while reloading, or I messed up my grip while reconnecting the other hand after the reload, I double tapped it too fast, etc.

The stage setup last night was a one that you have an open array of targets to shoot from 4 openings in cover. total of 24 shots if done perfect... on each end of the cover there were two targets at knee level... Most shooters(its a beginner type thing) walked each open.. I just swung out from behind the table at the beginning, hit the two side targets(perfect A hits while moving) to save time and then moved to one opening an began shooting... once I began shooting there.. after the first reload I started to "concentrate" on the farther steel poppers... because of this I kept missing... very few actual match course I have shot require you to stand for 20 shot(perfect hit total), it will be shoot 4 targets, move, shoot 3 move, shoot 3 and so on...

I think that when I do the shoot move shoot move.. I focus on my steps/aligning myself correctly more than shooting...and then I just shoot out of instinct which ends up being good... if I sit down and try to "aim" and "think" while I shoot I mess up.

MIke.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:21 PM
claire claire is offline
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We all have problems of one sort or another. When I start to get tired, I drop the muzzle and shoot low. It might be 1 or 2 shots out of 50, but I still do it and its an unconscience thing that I am now more aware of.

My trainer has always said the old crawl, walk, run. Claire, dont try to start out running....slow down.

You said you're basically a beginner. So am I. I cant compete with guys that have been in the military, or are LEOs, or peeps that have been around guns all their lives when it comes to speed. I can, however, hold my own on accuracy if I just go slower.

My Dad just tells me to practice my drills, throw thousands of rounds of ammo down range and the speed will come.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

claire
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  #13  
Old 07-16-2010, 01:06 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Not a beginner to shooting or 1911... just a beginner to competition shooting.

MIke.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:36 PM
claire claire is offline
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Sorry, didnt read that quite right.

claire
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:28 PM
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It might be a good idea to step back and evalutate your stance as well.

I had a problem with shots consistently being misplaced, but all coordinated in a tight group. After thinking it thought I came to the conclusion that something in my stance might follow through all the way to the paper.

From there I made a conscious effort to lean into my isosceles stance when shooting.

Miraculously, the problem went away.
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:26 PM
Coltman 77 Coltman 77 is offline
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This may help you.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:52 PM
I12BFree I12BFree is offline
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I'm with Mr. Lebowski, get someone to watch you shoot. Also, it has been my experience that too much finger will push my shots low and left; especially when I get tired or bored.
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Old 07-17-2010, 09:46 AM
SWAG SWAG is offline
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It's trigger control. Even if it's not all the time. It's trigger control.
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  #19  
Old 07-17-2010, 12:07 PM
wilkersk wilkersk is offline
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I have this same problem. For me, I tend to slap the trigger when I'm shooting a stage.

I'm trying to deal with this by slowing down a little and feeling the trigger reset. This forces me to stage the trigger properly rather than going from zero to bang.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:01 PM
tracyballard tracyballard is offline
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It won't.
makes a nice target, though.
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Old 07-17-2010, 07:31 PM
2littledogs 2littledogs is offline
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Mike.

Trying to help.

You've gotten a lot of information about "correct" stance.
I recall shooting one USPSA stage from a Lazyboy chair. Not much stance involved there. Stance is not that critical. (Flame suit on).

If you can get a decent grip and sight picture, you should be able to hit your target if you're standing, kneeling, sitting or prone, or leaning on one foot, around a barricade.

One thing you could try, is aiming at a target, with a good grip and sight picture, finger away from the trigger, and have a shooting buddy come up on your weak side and press the trigger. This will tell you kinda quick, if your sights are off, or if you have a FLINCH.
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Old 07-17-2010, 07:48 PM
I12BFree I12BFree is offline
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Shoot two magazines worth. Then load the third magazine with at least one dummy round. Blast away. You just might have an OMG moment. My wife did and I just laughed. "Oh no," she said, "It can't be me flinching." Nooooo, not possibly you flinching, nooooo way.
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  #23  
Old 07-18-2010, 01:53 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Alright, went to the range today... I think I have it figured out.

Ran into a guy there from a local match.. he helped me out... he noticed that I was anticipating the recoil sometimes... which wasn't as bad of an issue as when I slow fired after practicing the wall drill I was hitting bullseyes, still going to have to work on getting rid of that anticipation.. its not bad all the time, but sometimes it will kick in.

What I was doing wrong was on the rapid fire, I wasn't finding the reset on the trigger... he noticed that I was going past the reset almost lifting my finger off the trigger.. then when I came back down on it... it would pull the gun low left... It would make sense... I ran out of ammo(should have brought more haha) before I could fine tune it but I think I have the hang of it now that I am aware of what I'm doing wrong.

Make sense... during the matches I just "do it" and probably do it correctly... but when I over think it I wasn't finding the reset.. I was going past it.

Thanks for the help guys... if all works out I might shoot a IDPA match on Thursday(first time trying it) and we shall see how it all goes.

MIke.
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