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  #1  
Old 03-10-2010, 04:21 PM
philthephlier philthephlier is offline
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Hammer won't cock




Loading 2 rounds at a time after installing a C&S tactical 4.5 lb hammer,sear,
disconnector and springs, the pistol would fire the first round, eject and bring to battery the next round, but would not fully cock the hammer. The hammer would end up in the half cock notch each time. Fully cocking the hammer manually would then allow the gun to fire the second shot and lock the slide open. I repeated this several times and only once out of 20-30 tries did the hammer go all the way to full cock after the first shot. A couple of times the gun went auto and fired both rounds. Any advice is very welcome. The trigger pull after installing the kit was right on at 4.5 lbs.
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  #2  
Old 03-10-2010, 04:27 PM
log man log man is offline
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When you pull the slide back by hand does the slide fully cock the hammer, by over cocking it slightly and letting the hammer come to rest on the sear fully cocked as it closes?

LOG
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  #3  
Old 03-10-2010, 06:44 PM
philthephlier philthephlier is offline
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When you pull the slide back by hand does the slide fully cock the hammer, by over cocking it slightly and letting the hammer come to rest on the sear fully cocked as it closes?

LOG


If I understand your question correctly the hammer will go to full cock when the slide is activated by hand.

by over cocking it slightly and letting the hammer come to rest on the sear fully cocked as it closes? Not clear on what you mean by this part.
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  #4  
Old 03-10-2010, 06:57 PM
log man log man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philthephlier View Post
When you pull the slide back by hand does the slide fully cock the hammer, by over cocking it slightly and letting the hammer come to rest on the sear fully cocked as it closes?

LOG


If I understand your question correctly the hammer will go to full cock when the slide is activated by hand.

by over cocking it slightly and letting the hammer come to rest on the sear fully cocked as it closes? Not clear on what you mean by this part.
Well, watch the hammer, with the slide back and notice when the hammer is no longer being held back by the slide it comes up just a bit. Is that what you see? So, other problems to check, the disconnector may not be fully disconnecting. you can get an idea by removing the GS and watching as you empty cycle and dry fire, holding the trigger back like live fire and see if you can catch the disconnector not doing it's job.

LOG
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  #5  
Old 03-10-2010, 07:15 PM
philthephlier philthephlier is offline
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Well, watch the hammer, with the slide back and notice when the hammer is no longer being held back by the slide it comes up just a bit. Is that what you see? So, other problems to check, the disconnector may not be fully disconnecting. you can get an idea by removing the GS and watching as you empty cycle and dry fire, holding the trigger back like live fire and see if you can catch the disconnector not doing it's job.

LOG


Thanks for responding. I'll try these tests in a few hours when I can get back to it.
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  #6  
Old 03-10-2010, 07:22 PM
Shooter_rob Shooter_rob is offline
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Sounds to me like your hammer is following. You need to put more pressure on the sear with the spring. As you are looking in the back of the gun with the mainspring housing off it is the far left leaf of the leaf spring. Put more tension on it by lightly bending it forward toward the front of the gun. Sounds to me like the hammer is bouncing off of the sear under recoil. I shoot 1911's in competition, with very light triggers and this happens all the time. I also LOVE C&S parts, so I believe your issues is with the sear spring. Good luck and let us know what what fixes it.
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  #7  
Old 03-10-2010, 08:19 PM
log man log man is offline
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Originally Posted by Shooter_rob View Post
Sounds to me like your hammer is following. You need to put more pressure on the sear with the spring. As you are looking in the back of the gun with the mainspring housing off it is the far left leaf of the leaf spring. Put more tension on it by lightly bending it forward toward the front of the gun. Sounds to me like the hammer is bouncing off of the sear under recoil. I shoot 1911's in competition, with very light triggers and this happens all the time. I also LOVE C&S parts, so I believe your issues is with the sear spring. Good luck and let us know what what fixes it.
Sear spring pressure if it where very unbalanced at 4# is remotely possible, if the sear isn't getting any of that pressure, and would be something else to check. But since a new disco was part of the package and we don't even know the make of the pistol we'll see.

LOG
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  #8  
Old 03-10-2010, 09:56 PM
rex rex is offline
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What brand is the gun and did you check the fit or just drop them in?If you're lucky Log's diagnosis is ideal because yor sear is already buggered so cleaning it back up will also shorten it a little.If the sear is just catching the hammer it will work by hand but firing only starts reengagement because the slide is hauling butt and doesn't quite let the sear fully slide in-perfect peculiar circumstance happening.If you do have sufficient overcocking either as Log said the Dis isn't working and needs fitting or they either oopsed on the sear cut or your pins are off spec and the sear and hammer need mating to that geometry.
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2010, 10:39 PM
philthephlier philthephlier is offline
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Well, watch the hammer, with the slide back and notice when the hammer is no longer being held back by the slide it comes up just a bit. Is that what you see? So, other problems to check, the disconnector may not be fully disconnecting. you can get an idea by removing the GS and watching as you empty cycle and dry fire, holding the trigger back like live fire and see if you can catch the disconnector not doing it's job.

LOG


Cycling the slide very slowly allows me to see the hammer get engaged in the full cock notch. The slide continues to push the hammer back as it is moved further rearward. Then the hammer stops moving and the slide keeps going back a little more. then when the slide is drawn slowly forward the hammer comes back up slightly and then stops and stays engaged by the sear. Is that the proper operation? Also if the disconnector is pushed down into the grip frame while the hammer is cocked the trigger will not trip the sear. When released it will allow it to trip. I believe that is correct but I am learning. Thanks again for all the input.
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2010, 11:14 PM
log man log man is offline
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Good, that is correct, and a lot can be learned/realized just by watching and getting the action in mind. Watch the sear spring on the sear to see if it is possibly binding on the frame or catching in some way, sometimes just the edge can catch. Since it follows with the trigger held back the tension on the center is enough, what about the disco going up and down smoothly. The sear spring can catch the disco and bind it. Keep playing, checking.

LOG
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  #11  
Old 03-11-2010, 05:41 PM
philthephlier philthephlier is offline
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Thanks for your input Logman

Upon dissassembly of the SA GI 45 that wouldn't cock the hammer I discovered that the tip of the C&S sear was not sharp. It came with a rockwell # of 56 but the 2 faces were left just as they came out of the EDM machine. Not a clearly defined line between the major sear engagement surface and the smaller (in the corner of the hammer feet) surface. I have a sear jig and when I set it up with the .020" large feeler gauge that comes with the tool, there was almost .010" of steel over the gauge. I did not want to take it down to the .020", I just wanted to clean up the surfaces and create that defined line separating the 2 surfaces. I placed 2 sheets of paper under the feeler gauge for a total of .o27" and stoned it to there. Then I removed the paper and just used the feeler gauge to stone the small flat. Function so far without live fire is very nice. The trigger breaks at a very consistent 3lbs 6 ounces. I don't want the trigger that light though. I want a tactical 4-1/2 lbs that C&S advertised for the "drop in kit" Should I put the stock springs back in? Will that get me there?
Thanks for taking the time to help with this. I haven't had this much fun working on a gun in a long time. I make no claim to be a trained gunsmith but I am confident I will eventually get where I want to go. I know enough not to load a full magazine after working on the gun until it has fully proven itself. I also know I may have to give it to a professional to fix my errors. Part of the learning curve. Thanks again.
Phil Hogan
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  #12  
Old 03-11-2010, 11:39 PM
log man log man is offline
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Hey Phil, I've been out all day and missed the fun. Sounds like you may have found your problem.

A couple of points about the sear jig. The .020"feeler gauge serves a few purposes that you have already used it for. One it can serve as a shim to trim the hammer hooks to .020".

Two, it can also as you have already done, be laid on the stone, to support the sear to cut a relief angle.

Three it is also used to check if the sear is long enough to use by checking that it is at least as high or above the .020" gauge when the sear is installed in the fixture.

Okay it is used for one more thing. And that is to be held across the fixture towards the rear for the stone to lay on, at a point. Not to be laid on the fixture to stone the sear down too. But to give the stone a fixed point to rest on. In other words the stone needs two point to travel in a straight line, the shim across the fixture and the sear itself. This is a common misunderstanding of the shims purpose. Sears are not normally supplied longer than desired, but do often need polishing and fitting left to right so both hooks make contact.

This can be checked with a Sharpie and with the sear in the fixture the high side indicated by the Sharpie rub off can be stoned and re-checked.

With the sear pin in the sear measure from the bottom of the pin to the sear face, it should be .450"-.460" with mid range being best, .453"-.454" seems to work pretty well.

LOG
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Ask 1911Pro! Resident RKI.......it gun....gun dangerous...


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