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  #1  
Old 12-13-2009, 07:29 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Failure to go into battery!!!




Need some advice. I have a 5" 1911 that shoots great when it's clean. However when it gets a little fouling it fails to go into battery. The pistol shot fine for about 60 rounds today at a local IDPA match. Got to the last stage of 6 stages and it had 2 FTBs with 2 different mags. The pistol has a ramped and supported bull barrel. Polished the feed ramp a long time ago,so that's not it. It has a Wilson Bulletproof extractor, it looks fine no sharp edges or corners. What could be the cause of these FTBs? I did a search but didn't find a lot of help there. Forgot to say that I shoot nothing but factory 230 grain FMJ, today I was shooting PMC, which is not new to the pistol. The pistol will shoot any brand of ammo when it's clean, but FTB when dirty.

Last edited by guysmith; 12-13-2009 at 07:41 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2009, 07:37 PM
horseman horseman is offline
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What caused mine was out of spec brass. Which was the result of a worn out sizing die. Assume reloads? Have you dropped them in a go no go gauge?
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2009, 08:35 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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I only shoot factory ammo, no reloads. 73 viewings and 1 response? Please, I need some help here folks.
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  #4  
Old 12-14-2009, 08:50 AM
mer mer is offline
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Short chamber?
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2009, 08:55 AM
pjsjr pjsjr is offline
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guysmith, I'm not an expert...but since your begging for replies.

I would check all the tolerances that I could...or find someone that knows what they should be and how to check them. If it is stock then they should be within the mfg specs...if custom/modified then that's up to who ever did it and their problem(hope it's not you).

I say this 'cause you claim no problem when clean and FTB when dirty. I have fired my 1911s several hundred rounds of reloads with Win 231 and LSWCs and not had problems. HTH, Preston
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  #6  
Old 12-14-2009, 08:58 AM
timcalhoun timcalhoun is offline
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What exactly is the malfunction? Is it a nose down on the feed ramp? 3 point jam (round not sliding up under the extractor)? Not going the last 1/4 into battery? It is a little confusing since you mention both the feed ramp and the extractor and being dirty.
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:13 AM
Jim_Macklin Jim_Macklin is offline
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The slide needs to go full back to compress the recoil spring, then the recoil spring can accelerate the slide back into battery.
If the slide rails are dirty and dry and you have a weak recoil spring [or are running a weak spring] that was marginal, replace the spring with the same or a step stronger.

I am assuming that the magazine is not at fault and that the cartridge did start into the chamber.
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  #8  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:15 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Agree with Tim, to help we need to know where it is stopping.

It could be that the integral ramp is too steep, many are. If so, you need a gunsmith brave enough to recontour (not "polish") it to the shape and angle of a real 1911's. I have had two done, one by a little, one by a lot. Which represents 100% of my integral ramp mutations.

It could be that the chamber is undersize, many are. If so, a gunsmith with sharp SAAMI or milspec reamer and headspace gauge can fix that.

There are other possibilities, those are two that I have personal experience of.

By the way, that 5" bull barrel is not legit for IDPA. I doubt your local club cares but it would not be permitted in a sanctioned match.
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:24 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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It's failing to go into battery the last 1/4". All it takes is a light tap on the back of the slide and it closes. When I first got the pistol it was a jam-o-matic. Sent it to a good smith here in St.Louis, Otto-Comp. He refit the ramped bull barrel, and did some other stuff not related to feeding. Checkered the front strap, radiused the square dust cover, so it could fit concealed carry holsters, and cut and installed a Bomar adjustable rear sight. I have replaced the extractor with a Wilson Bulletproof and it tensioned correctly, and installed a 22# recoil spring.(I know to heavy of spring but it's the only way the thing functions). I only shoot factory 230 grain FMJ. I thought this was fixed, but with 2 FTBs yesterday, I'm not so sure. Both FTBs were at around 60 to 70 rounds. Ran though 5 stages at an IDPA match and on the last stage it started this stuff again. The chamber DOESN'T have any scratches or burrs, the feed ramp is polished to a mirror finish. Breechface is smooth but not polished. I was useing Wilson ETM mags, & Cobra mags. All are new mags with made 300 rounds though them. I AM STUMPED as to what is going on.

Yeah I know I only shoot the pistol at club level matches. I am hoping for a rule change with the new rules, since they are allowing railed 5" pistols. Bill's argument is that a bull barrel recoils less than a bushing barrel. Not that I can attest to that, the Mitchell recoils the same as my Champion Loaded and it's a 4" bull barrel. We will see when the new rule book comes out.

Last edited by guysmith; 12-14-2009 at 09:31 AM.
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:30 AM
timcalhoun timcalhoun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
It's failing to go into battery the last 1/4". All it takes is a light tap on the back of the slide and it closes. When I first got the pistol it was a jam-o-matic. Sent it to a good smith here in St.Louis, Otto-Comp. He refit the ramped bull barrel, and did some other stuff not related to feeding. Checkered the front strap, radiused the square dust cover, so it could fit concealed carry holsters, and cut and installed a Bomar adjustable rear sight. I have replaced the extractor with a Wilson Bulletproof and it tensioned correctly, and installed a 22# recoil spring.(I know to heavy of spring but it's the only way the thing functions). I only shoot factory 230 grain FMJ. I thought this was fixed, but with 2 FTBs yesterday, I'm not so sure. Both FTBs were at around 60 to 70 rounds. Ran though 5 stages at an IDPA match and on the last stage it started this stuff again. The chamber DOESN'T have any scratches or burrs, the feed ramp is polished to a mirror finish. Breechface is smooth but not polished. I was useing Wilson ETM mags, & Cobra mags. All are new mags with made 300 rounds though them. I AM STUMPED as to what is going on.
How many rounds does the gun have through it? Is it wet when you are running it? If it is a tight barrel fit and you only have 5 or 6 hundred rounds through it, you just may need to shoot it a bunch more.
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  #11  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:38 AM
timcalhoun timcalhoun is offline
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The good thing is, it is not your mags, not your extractor, not your breech face, not your feed ramp etc..

Not going the last 1/4 inch is usually that the gun is not broken in or is too dry. Make sure you wet the top of the barrel and then cycle it to get lube on the lugs.

Worst case, the barrel is not fit properly.
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  #12  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:42 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Oh no it isn't a new gun, I had it for over ten years with about 3000 round though it. I used it in my AP1 & 2 classes and it ran fine and we ran 1000 round down range in 2 days w/o a hiccup. I did clean it have the first day. That's why I said I thought it was fixed. I use white lithium grease, and it wasn't cold yesterday. If it was the lube and too cold the thing should have hung up sooner in the match like the first stage, when the pistol was cold. Like I said I'm at a lose as to why this thing isn't going into battery. Oh yeah the top of the disco is polished also. I make sure to lube the barrel lugs, rails, dico track, and the hood and hand cycle to spread the lube.

Last edited by guysmith; 12-14-2009 at 09:50 AM.
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  #13  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:51 AM
BigJon BigJon is offline
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Since you can bump it closed from where it stops, I'll bet it's just a rough chamber that's holding a bit too much crud after you've shot for a bit, and not any sort of bind in the lugs or barrel ramp or throat, which might not let you bump it the rest of the way. Wouldn't hurt anything to lightly polish the chamber with a dowel wrapped in very fine paper, and not enough to actually remove metal - just to slick the walls up. And then try again - if it's fixed, it's fixed. If it isn't, still nothing lost.

Best,
Jon
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  #14  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:52 AM
timcalhoun timcalhoun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Oh no it isn't a new gun, I had it for over ten years with about 3000 round though it. I used it in my AP1 & 2 classes and it ran fine and we ran 1000 round down range in 2 days w/o a hiccup. I did clean it have the first day. That's why I said I thought it was fixed. I use white lithium grease, and it wasn't cold yesterday. If it was the lube and too cold the thing should have hung up sooner in the match like the first stage, when the pistol was cold. Like I said I'm at a lose as to why this thing isn't going into battery. Oh yeah the top of the disco is polished also.
Is this a factory gun or a custom build?

I think I would send it to a reputable 1911 guy and have him go through it. It should never need a 22lb spring to run 100%. I have never used anything over 16lb in 5in 45s. And that heavy spring is really costing you when shooting IDPA. I think it needs some hands on love.
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  #15  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:53 AM
MSgt Dotson MSgt Dotson is offline
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time for a new recoil spring?
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  #16  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:53 AM
timcalhoun timcalhoun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon View Post
Since you can bump it closed from where it stops, I'll bet it's just a rough chamber that's holding a bit too much crud after you've shot for a bit, and not any sort of bind in the lugs or barrel ramp or throat, which might not let you bump it the rest of the way. Wouldn't hurt anything to lightly polish the chamber with a dowel wrapped in very fine paper, and not enough to actually remove metal - just to slick the walls up. And then try again - if it's fixed, it's fixed. If it isn't, still nothing lost.

Best,
Jon
Good call.
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  #17  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:55 AM
log man log man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Oh no it isn't a new gun, I had it for over ten years with about 3000 round though it. I used it in my AP1 & 2 classes and it ran fine and we ran 1000 round down range in 2 days w/o a hiccup. I did clean it have the first day. That's why I said I thought it was fixed. I use white lithium grease, and it wasn't cold yesterday. If it was the lube and too cold the thing should have hung up sooner in the match like the first stage, when the pistol was cold. Like I said I'm at a lose as to why this thing isn't going into battery. Oh yeah the top of the disco is polished also.
Clean all that sticky stuff out and use a light gun grease like TW25B or simply dare I suggest a gun oil. White lithium grease is designed for use in exterior environments and water proof. Too sticky. Not a good choice for fast moving parts. Great for the garage door tracks or drum brake rubbing pads.

LOG
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  #18  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:56 AM
ouluckydogu ouluckydogu is offline
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Try running your pistol without the grease, use a good oil instead and see what happens. My tactical elite doesnt like grease but runs fine on oil.

Lucky
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  #19  
Old 12-14-2009, 09:57 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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That's what I have been thinking John. I think I'll find me a .45 polishing bob and use white compound and Flitz. When I clean the chamber I use a Wilson chamber brush and wrap a patch around it with some JBs paste. When the chamber is clean rounds slide in and out real slick. Thanks for everyones thoughts.

Hey guys this isn't my first SS pistol I own 3, and have been using lithium grease ever since my first SS pistol an AMT Hardballer. I'll try oil but I don't think the gun will put 20 rounds down range with oil before it hangs up. My Kimber BP Ten II Pro Carry and my S/A SS Champion Loaded both run just fine with white lithium.

I'm going to trouble shoot this thing again, it's just frustrating.

Last edited by guysmith; 12-14-2009 at 10:16 AM.
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  #20  
Old 12-14-2009, 10:50 AM
BigJon BigJon is offline
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Heck, I don't know if I'd go to all that trouble. Some 1,200 around a dowel ought to do pretty well. I'd do that before I started putting JB in the chamber on a regular (every-cleaning) basis - that makes my ol' cheeks grab cotton a li'l bit.
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  #21  
Old 12-14-2009, 11:16 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Ok here's what I found. A round fits in the chamber just fine, dirty and clean. I did find that my extractor was too tight, adjusted that, also knocked the square edge off the bottom of the rim groove, broke the edge to a radius. Repolished the feed ramp to a mirror finish. Buffed the breech face with a red scotch brite pad. Soo I'm off to the range tomorrow to test fire this thing. I didn't clean it real well so it should only take a mag or two for it get dirty enough to hang up.
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  #22  
Old 12-14-2009, 11:43 AM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
It's failing to go into battery the last 1/4". All it takes is a light tap on the back of the slide and it closes. ... I have replaced the extractor with a Wilson Bulletproof and it tensioned correctly, and installed a 22# recoil spring.(I know to heavy of spring but it's the only way the thing functions). ... I was useing Wilson ETM mags, & Cobra mags...
It's a Mitchell? Have you tried it without the extractor installed. That may prove/disprove your extractor fit/tension. 22# spring is way to heavy. If that is the only way it functions, you are up the problem.
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  #23  
Old 12-14-2009, 12:04 PM
BigJon BigJon is offline
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Just saw the 22-lb spring thing. A too-heavy spring can actually contribute to the problem, believe it or not. Stick a 16 pound spring in it and try it. Also, once it's dirty, try it with the extractor out of the gun as BBBBill wisely said - that'll may help you confirm or eliminate the extractor as the source of the problem.
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  #24  
Old 12-14-2009, 12:23 PM
timcalhoun timcalhoun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBBBill View Post
It's a Mitchell? Have you tried it without the extractor installed. That may prove/disprove your extractor fit/tension. 22# spring is way to heavy. If that is the only way it functions, you are up the problem.
Isn't the round already under the extractor the last 1/4 inch?
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  #25  
Old 12-14-2009, 12:38 PM
partsproduction partsproduction is offline
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The round jumping in front of the extractor occurred to me, bad juju that!

I had a pistol like yours, an AMT. The chamber was just a tad too short, some would cause FTB and some not. I lengthened the chamber and the problem went away.

I wish Log would speak to this one. If there is too tight a lockup then there is a FTB waiting to happen with each load. I had a gun that would close almost all the way, then go "clunk" as the barrel came up. Doesn't sound like that's your problem though.
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