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  #1  
Old 12-07-2008, 08:20 PM
me1911 me1911 is offline
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.38 Super vs .357sig...




...Where do they fall in the power spectrum/continuum with respect to one another? How do compare ballistically?


Tom
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  #2  
Old 12-07-2008, 09:26 PM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
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The main difference is you need a large (.45) size frame for the .38 super and the .357 Sig will fit into a medium size (9 mm) frame. It is my understanding that the .357 will only work well with a very narrow range of bullet weights where the .38 super is a little more adaptable, but I wouldn't swear to it. My GUESS is that the case capacity is very similar, but I haven't bothered to look it up I confess. It's kind of like comparing apples to oranges.
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  #3  
Old 12-07-2008, 09:48 PM
superdude superdude is offline
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see this

http://www.38super.net/Pages/comparisons.html
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  #4  
Old 12-07-2008, 10:20 PM
HiVelSword HiVelSword is offline
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me1911, don't take the graph in that link as gospel. Though many manufacturer's claim their 125 grain .357 SIG's at 1,350 it can easily go 1,400/1,450 fps. I know Gold Dot states 1,350 fps but I've never chronoed it out at less than 1,412 fps and that's out of a SIG 239.

BTW, I like the .38 Super and even though I know the 9x23 is more powerful I'm still going to get a Commander in .38 Super. It's been a dream of mine. Hopefully sometime in 2009. Been putting it off for too long.
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  #5  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:14 AM
XTrooper XTrooper is offline
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Why not both?!

My Colt Lightweight Commander which I converted from .38 Super to Winchester 9x23. Of course, I can swap back in the .38 Super barrel and recoil spring anytime I want. I do this when I'm qualifying because .38 Super ammo is a little cheaper than Win. 9x23.


My Smith & Wesson M&P357
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Last edited by XTrooper; 12-08-2008 at 05:17 AM.
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  #6  
Old 12-09-2008, 09:27 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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as commonly loaded

The 357 SIG offers greater velocities with similar-weight bullets.

The 38 Super is offered with more weights.
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  #7  
Old 12-09-2008, 11:04 AM
tedh tedh is offline
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The 357 Sig is more powerfull than the 38 super.
One negative is that the 357 Sig uses a bottle neck case whick some people don't trust it in an auto loader.
The 38 Super is a straight wall case and is sized for the 1911 frame.
The 38 super can give 100 to 200 feet per second improvement over 9mm with all bullet weights and I have seen 38 super loaded with 147 grain bullets at about 1200 fps.
Most manufacturers sadle the 357 Sig is 125 Grain bullets. It just seems a shame to burden that cartridge with a 9mm bullet. It has enough case capacity to handle a well constructed 145 or 150 grain bullet. Double tap ammo makes a 147 grain loading for that round loaded to 1297 fps from a 4.5 inch barrel.
The 357 Sig is popular with some Police and HiWay patrol so there is some good ammo out there. 357 Sig is available in bulk ammo.
The 38 Super doesn't have as many good offerings but you CAN buy 38 Super in Mexico.
Some people find the 357 Sig recoil to be to much for them. But then some people find the 380 acp to be to much as well.
357 Sig is a bit more troublesome to reload.
Ted

Last edited by tedh; 12-09-2008 at 06:22 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-09-2008, 12:17 PM
HiVelSword HiVelSword is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedh View Post
One negative is that the 357 Sig uses a bottle neck case whick some people don't trust it in an auto loader.

Ted
Why wouldn't they trust it? The bottleneck enhances feed reliability. And every article I've ever read about it says the same thing.

I have shot PLENTY of .357 SIG's and I've never experienced a malfunction of any kind whatsoever.
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  #9  
Old 12-09-2008, 01:17 PM
tedh tedh is offline
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I didn't say that was the Imperical Truth. But their are a lot of guys who din't trust bottle neck cartridges in auto loading pistols.
Look at all of the most popular cartridges. 40 cal, 45 ACP, 9MM P, 380 Auto, 32 ACP.

Bottle neck cartridges seem to work well in rifles but for some resaon the straight walled cases remain most popular with pistol designers.
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  #10  
Old 12-09-2008, 03:05 PM
XTrooper XTrooper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiVelSword View Post
Why wouldn't they trust it? The bottleneck enhances feed reliability. And every article I've ever read about it says the same thing.
Correct. In the case (pun not intended) of the .357 SIG, it is based on the .40 S&W, so you are shoving a .355" bullet into a ~.40" chamber. Feed reliability is understandably enhanced and, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. Pistols chambered in .357 SIG have proven to be extremely reliable.
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Last edited by XTrooper; 12-10-2008 at 05:20 PM.
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  #11  
Old 12-09-2008, 06:29 PM
HiVelSword HiVelSword is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedh View Post
I didn't say that was the Imperical Truth. But their are a lot of guys who din't trust bottle neck cartridges in auto loading pistols.
Look at all of the most popular cartridges. 40 cal, 45 ACP, 9MM P, 380 Auto, 32 ACP.

Bottle neck cartridges seem to work well in rifles but for some resaon the straight walled cases remain most popular with pistol designers.
That has nothing to do with trust OR reliability. You're stating reason when there is none. Just because there aren't that many bottleneck pistol cartridges doesn't mean that people or manufacturers don't trust them. T-33 Tokarev and CZ 52 were reliable handguns. The one's I've fired never malf'd. The FN 5/7 is a reliable pistol. If the 9x25 (though not hugely popular) was unreliable it would not even exist at all.

And then there are all of those .357 SIG pistols out there.


Bottleneck pistol cartridges have always been a European/Slavic/Russian thing. The calibers you mentioned are all American by birth.

Your reason for the lack of bottleneck cartridges are based purely on conjecture.
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"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do."

-Rorschach

Last edited by HiVelSword; 12-09-2008 at 06:32 PM.
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  #12  
Old 12-09-2008, 06:48 PM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
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Here is my OPINION

AND it is based on what I've read and learned from gunsmiths.........

The 1911 platform works great or at least pretty well with a cartridge that is similar in length to a 45acp. The 38 Super and 45 ACP are virtually the same in length.

However, the 357.sig and 40S&W (both of which I love) are somewhat shorter than the 45s and 38s.

Although the 40 and 357 may be EXTREMELY reliable in a doublestack pistol designed for that length of cartridge............it does not always carry over to a single stack 1911 pistol.
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  #13  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:16 PM
HiVelSword HiVelSword is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rangertrace View Post
AND it is based on what I've read and learned from gunsmiths.........

The 1911 platform works great or at least pretty well with a cartridge that is similar in length to a 45acp. The 38 Super and 45 ACP are virtually the same in length.

However, the 357.sig and 40S&W (both of which I love) are somewhat shorter than the 45s and 38s.

Although the 40 and 357 may be EXTREMELY reliable in a doublestack pistol designed for that length of cartridge............it does not always carry over to a single stack 1911 pistol.
But we aren't talking strictly 1911's. If the OP asked what we like better in a 1911 then that's a different story.

But apart from that, I agree with you when it comes to the 1911. Besides, it makes no sense to go with the .357 SIG in a 1911 when the 9x23 is its ballistic twin.
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"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do."

-Rorschach
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  #14  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:26 PM
tedh tedh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiVelSword View Post
But we aren't talking strictly 1911's. If the OP asked what we like better in a 1911 then that's a different story.

But apart from that, I agree with you when it comes to the 1911. Besides, it makes no sense to go with the .357 SIG in a 1911 when the 9x23 is its ballistic twin.
He can buy bulk ammo in 357 sig.
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  #15  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:59 PM
HiVelSword HiVelSword is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedh View Post
He can buy bulk ammo in 357 sig.
If that's a concern.

As much as I love the .357 SIG I'd take 10+1 of .38 Super over 9+1 in .357. The choice is harder for me if it's .38 Super vs. 9x23.

As far as "short" cartridges in a 1911 go, they recently came out with dedicated 10 round 9mm magazines that I believe have a spacer along the inside of the spine. It makes up for the lack of length. Perhaps they'll make .40/.357 SIG mags the same way thus taking the "short" ='s unreliable factor in making a decision on which cartridge you'd like your 1911 to be in.
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"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do."

-Rorschach
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  #16  
Old 12-10-2008, 04:26 PM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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my old 9x19 mags

They 'space' the cartridge to the front, but they hold nine.

My 40 S&W 1911 mags only hold eight.

I don't have a 357 SIG-chambered 1911 (but I have two 45s that both take my Clark 400 CorBon barrel).

IF I was forced to choose based on availability I'd choose the 9x19 (I did).
Between the SIF and the Super I'd choose the SIG.

IF building one I'd choose te 9x23; damn the case expense.
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  #17  
Old 12-10-2008, 04:29 PM
me1911 me1911 is offline
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It's interesting to see where the .38 Super fits in the power spectrum. Am I correct then in saying it kind of fits between .40 and .357Sig and that 9x23 is a slightly more powerful load than .357Sig? Also, why isn't 9x23 more popular? And to complicate the picture a little more, I know 10mm can be loaded to a broad power spectrum. But where does it fit here?


Tom

Last edited by me1911; 12-10-2008 at 04:32 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2008, 04:33 PM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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blame old guns and SAAMI

38 Super ammo made to SAAMI spec must be safe in old guns of suspect metallurgy.

The 357 SIG and 9x23 are 'new', and their SAAMI specs are higher.

Not certain why the 9x23 never caught on (same reason as the 41 AE, no real backers with guns).
Winchester made a huge intial run but the guns never followed.

Figure 124g JHP at 1475fps. (You can do the same with the 38 Super but the cases won't last as long; can't quite get there with most 9x19 platforms).
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  #19  
Old 12-10-2008, 08:49 PM
40dcoe 40dcoe is offline
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I love carbide sizing dies. Betcha they don't make 'em for the .357 Sig.

LONG LIVE THE SUPER !


Joe
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  #20  
Old 12-11-2008, 05:49 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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cheap trick

Size with a carbide 40 S&W die; finish with the 357 SIG die for tweaking its neck.

(Same thing for my 400 CorBon; size with carbide 45 die, finish-tweak the neck with the 400 die.)
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  #21  
Old 12-11-2008, 09:35 AM
tedh tedh is offline
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When you Size 357 SIG are you setting it up to headspace on the shoulder or the case mouth?
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  #22  
Old 12-11-2008, 10:30 AM
40dcoe 40dcoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedh View Post
When you Size 357 SIG are you setting it up to headspace on the shoulder or the case mouth?
According to my Speer Manual #13, it headspaces on the case mouth.

I've never seen a .357 Sig, so I don't know.

Joe
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  #23  
Old 12-31-2013, 09:13 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WESHOOT2 View Post
Size with a carbide 40 S&W die; finish with the 357 SIG die for tweaking its neck.

(Same thing for my 400 CorBon; size with carbide 45 die, finish-tweak the neck with the 400 die.)
Isn't that a lot of work sizing twice? That's the beauty of straight cases, only one sizing per case. And if you do it your way you need two sets of dies. I'm not seeing that the 357 is real reloader friendly.
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  #24  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:48 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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.38 super vs. .357 SIG

Both calibers are great.... When talking about factory made ammo, the .357 SIG is more powerful showing higher velocities with most bullets.

I like the .38 super, mainly because I am a reloader, and the .38 super offers great versatility when reloading. I use fully supported barrels, and have made some extreme loads using small rifle primers, but too much recoil does not help with fast follow up shots, so I have found a balance that works for me when making my self defense loads.....a good and reliable load I like is a 125 gr. Gold Dot or Hornady XTP with IMR 4756 that shows 1350 fps out of the muzzle with over 500 ft. lbs. of energy. It is not too stout as far as recoil, but you can definitely feel the difference in the recoil compared to a standard 9mm load. I can still shoot my .38 super Commander very fast and with excellent accuracy, but shoot my .38 super carry comp even better!

My self defense loads work good for me, and I don't think I would be "undergunned" in any self defense situation.....the speed to get off the first shot and good shot placement is the most important factor, and a 1911 in .38 super allows good speed and accuracy. It is hard to beat a tuned 1911 trigger....which allows excellent trigger control when shooting fast.

Last edited by richpetrone; 01-01-2014 at 06:50 AM.
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  #25  
Old 01-01-2014, 03:42 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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Quote:
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I love carbide sizing dies. Betcha they don't make 'em for the .357 Sig...

http://www.dillonprecision.com/conte...e_Deprime_Dies
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