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  #1  
Old 11-12-2008, 12:33 AM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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M1911A1 Remington Rand Proof questions




I have a M1911A1 Serial 1211XXX 2nd edition slide. My question is the S/N has No before it. The information that I'm getting say's the serial number 1041404 was the last made with the line under the o. And didn't start remaking without the line until 1279699. I hope you can make out what I'm trying to say here. I'll post some pic's. Also it has AA above trigger ( Augusta Arsenal ) I'll just post some pic's and wait for a follow up. One more thing, the P on the barrel is smaller then the p by the clip release botton.Attachment 37290
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_1109.jpg   IMG_1112.jpg   IMG_1113.jpg   IMG_1105.jpg  

Last edited by Kurtm; 11-12-2008 at 12:40 AM. Reason: Number posted
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2008, 05:53 AM
faawrenchbndr faawrenchbndr is offline
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RR halted production in 1943, When they resumed production the line from under the "O" in "NO" in front of the serial number was removed.
This transition started at approximately 955000

Looks like you have a late 1942.
Below is a link to some very good info about the USGI M1911 series,....


http://www.coolgunsite.com/
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  #3  
Old 11-12-2008, 10:10 AM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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Thank you for the information, I'll be buying a books on 1911's this will help me out. I had to do the same with my Garand and carbine. I'm such a rookie! I'm trying to find out if this gun left the US Army as is.

Can you tell me anything about the proof mark p ? This is what i'm reading

"Proof mark, sizes may vary. But if more then one on a pistol they will be the same size. Slide and frame P marks will match."

Also S/N range:

1942 916405-921699(1)
1943 921700-1041404(1) 125,000
1943 1279699-1363699(2)
1944 1363700-1441430(2) 161,732
1944 1471431-1609528 138,098
1944 1743847-1816641 72,795
1944 1890504-2031599(3)
1945 2031600-2075103(3) 184,600
1945 2134404-2244803 110,400
1945 2380014-2465139 85,126
Note: (#) indicates same/single contract


Mine will fall between this number range. It has the 2nd edition slide. which shouldn't be on a late 42. I'm really rattled about the "P" markings being different sizes. Could it be an arsenal remake and how much value will it lose?


""1943 862000-958100 Colt
856405-916404 Ithaca Colt duplicated these SN 60,000
856101-856300 Rock Island Arsenal, Renumbered 200
856301-856304 Augusta Arsenal, Renumbered 4
856305-856404 Rock Island Arsenal, Renumbered 100
1041405-1096404 US & S Colt duplicated these SN 55,000
1088726-1092896 Colt 4171
1096405-1208673 Colt 1944 starts at 1155000 112,269
1208674-1279673 Ithaca 1944 starts at 1235000 71,000
1279699-1441430 Remington Rand 1944 starts at 1363700 161,732
1441431-1471430 Ithaca 30,000
1944 14711431-1609528 Remington Rand 138,098"



Is it possible that Ithaca made this gun for Remington Rand? The SN don't add up. The serial number of my gun fall between the numbers in blue.


Thanks

Kurt

Last edited by Kurtm; 11-12-2008 at 12:15 PM. Reason: More information
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  #4  
Old 11-12-2008, 01:11 PM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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Answer to my own question

I think I've got my own answer. It looks like I have a RR slide on a ithica frame. One thing I note is the FIA stamped on the frame? isn't that RR inspector?

Kurt

Last edited by Kurtm; 11-14-2008 at 07:50 AM.
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2008, 10:17 AM
pjsjr pjsjr is offline
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Kurtm, I suggest that you get a mod to move yours or you post in the USGI section. There are experts there that don't frequent these other threads. HTH, Preston
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2008, 04:57 PM
SMGZPH67 SMGZPH67 is offline
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FJA, Col Frank J Atwood. Yes
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2008, 05:37 PM
Johnny Peppers Johnny Peppers is offline
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Colonel Frank J. Atwood was the commanding officer in charge of all inspections and acceptance in the Rochester Ordnance District where the pistol was made. His initials appear on small arms manufactured and accepted in his ordnance district. He did no inspecting.
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  #8  
Old 11-14-2008, 07:31 AM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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First thanks for moving this thread.

I'm still not sure if Ithica frame had the FJA stamp, I know RR had it. I would like to know if this is a ordnance rework from the military are should I try to get the correct slide or frame?

Kurt

Last edited by Kurtm; 11-14-2008 at 08:08 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-14-2008, 08:16 AM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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I've been researching again....this time I think I've got it: Below is what I found browsing around online. Again, I would like professional advice about my gun.

Kurt





Looking at the pistol's frame, here are some rules to help you identify its maker:

1. The presence of VP proofmark in a triangle at the left front of the triggerguard; a GHD inspector marking or an M1911A1 marking without any spaces between the figures indicates an M1911A1 manufactured by Colt.

2. A serial number preceded by an "S" indicates an M1911A1 manufactured by Singer _(not many of these around - an understatement)_

3. A serial number preceded by a "NO" instead of a "No" indicates manufacture by Remington-Rand.

4. An RCD inspector mark or double spacing between the M and 1911A1 indicates manufacture by Union Switch and Signal.

5. A geometric-shape proofmark, like a triangle, arrowhead or such, on the front left of triggerguard indicates an M1911A1 made by Ithaca.

6. An "X" prefix to the serial number indicates a gun that has been re-serial numbered by ordnance, and the maker is neither identifiable or relevant.

These rules will not allow you to identify every single frame you encounter, but the will suffice for 99 percent of them."

BTW, when M1911A1 pistols were rebuilt a military facility they were rebuilt without any regard to the maker of the frame, slide or other parts...mix 'n match, first in - last out, whatever was expedient to get the pistol in and out was the rule of thumb. Any such rebuilds will normally be stamped with a code indicating the facility that did the work. It might be any of the following (and there may have been others not shown):

AAA - Anniston Army Depot
AA - Augusta Arsenal
OG - Ogden Arsenal
MR - Mt. Rainier Ordnance Depot
RA - Raritan Arsenal
RR - Red River Arsenal
RIA - Rock Island Arsenal
SAA - San Antonio Arsenal
SA - Springfield Armory
BA - Benecia Arsenal


The following taken from an article by Charles W. Karwan in the 3/1/95 issue of Classic Firearms will shed some light.

"All is not lost, however. The guns themselves can help you reveal
which company made the pistol's frame. First, if you encounter an
M1911A1 - identified by the finger cutouts and/or the M1911A1
markings on the frame - and it has a slide made by Remington-UMC,
Springfield or Savage, you know the slide is not original to the
gun since the first two manufacturers only made M1911 pistols
during WWI, and the latter only made M1911 slides.
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  #10  
Old 11-14-2008, 08:49 AM
Johnny Peppers Johnny Peppers is offline
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Some pretty good information, some not so good.

G.H.D. are not the only acceptance initials found on the Colt 1911A1.

Remington Rand also used No. preceding the serial number.

Ithaca did not start using the symbols on the front left triggerguard until the 900,000 serial number range. The Colt VP is also in a triangle on the front left triggerguard.

The X prefix serial number was used when the serial number had been removed or altered, and those that were inadvertently lost during refinishing.

Every pistol rebuilt at a government facility does not have the initials of that facility. Augusta Arsenal seems to be the most consistent in applying the marks, but markings from some rebuild facilities are rarely if ever seen.

The M 1911A1 U.S. ARMY marking on the right side of the frame of the 1911A1 is uniquely different from each manufacturer. If you become familiar with this marking, you don't even need a serial number list to determine the manufacturer.
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  #11  
Old 11-14-2008, 02:16 PM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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Thanks Johnny

What can you tell me about my gun by looking at the pic's. Should I leave the gun as is ( which I'm hoping to do) are would it be wise and try to locate the correct parts. If this pistol came from the armory as is, I think I would leave it so.
Is there anything that might be unique about my gun that you might see.

Kurt
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  #12  
Old 11-14-2008, 02:39 PM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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Something else I ran across:


To aid in Ithaca’s production delays, replacement slides identified by the "M1911A1 U.S. ARMY" stamped on the right side of the slide were used in regular production. These can be found from about serial number 904000 to about the 1208674 range. Both Colt, Remington Rand, and Union Switch and Signal produced replacement slides with the "M1911A1 U.S. ARMY" on the right side. These were made from 1938 to mid 1943. But Ithaca Gun Co. was the only company to use them in regular production. These slides found on pistols of another manufacturer besides Ithaca Gun Co. signifies that the slide has been replaced.


This might explain why I have a Ithaca frame and a RR slide. My number is very close to the 1208674. Maybe mine is correct !

Kurt
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  #13  
Old 11-14-2008, 03:01 PM
Johnny Peppers Johnny Peppers is offline
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Ithaca was the only 1911A1 manufacturer to use the slides originally intended for replacement slides on regular production pistols, but Ithaca used only slides manufactured by Ithaca and so marked. No manufacturer used a slide marked with another manufacturers logo. A slide frame mismatch was never original.

"These slides found on pistols of another manufacturer besides Ithaca Gun Co. signifies that the slide has been replaced."

Forgot to add, but since the pistol is an Augusta Arsenal rework, I would leave it just as it is. The pistol possibly had one of the Ithaca replacement marked slides, but when pistols went through rework no attempt was made to keep the parts together. It appears to be a legitimate arsenal rework.

Last edited by Johnny Peppers; 11-14-2008 at 03:07 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-14-2008, 03:15 PM
Kurtm Kurtm is offline
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Thank Johnny,

What can you tell me about the value of this gun ( considering it's a rework )

Thanks

Kurt
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