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  #1  
Old 05-19-2002, 09:56 AM
Dwolf00 Dwolf00 is offline
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.45 185gr vs. 230gr




I realize that there is a lot of folks that are anti-185 gr in .45, but I'll ask the question anyway. What is better a 185gr +P JHP vs. 230gr JHP for a defensive load in .45 acp?
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  #2  
Old 05-19-2002, 10:21 AM
Piglet Piglet is offline
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Look Here

Go to this link and figure it out for yourself. The gents who do the testing let you decide. They just provide you the raw data.

www.ammolab.com/Test%20Results.htm

Piglet
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  #3  
Old 05-19-2002, 06:11 PM
nemesis nemesis is offline
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It depends upon your barrel length.

When you buy tires, do you just say "give me tires"? Or do you ask for the correct sized tires for YOUR car and YOUR type of driving?

Cartridge selection is largely, but not completely, based upon the weapon which fires it.

There are, however, people who will only use 230 grain hardball because
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  #4  
Old 05-20-2002, 10:29 AM
Paraordp13 Paraordp13 is offline
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Well the 230 grain Fed Hydra shock is famous for stopping power, but a 185 + P will expand more than the 230 grain (check ammo lab) due to the increased speed. That will put more energy into the target. I have heard people say that the 185 stuff will not penetrate, especially through heavy clothing, and I think thats bs. But even if it were to get stopped by clothing, or a vest, that person is going to absorb over 500 pounds of energy aka broken ribs, whose fragements will puncher organs, etc. Either way, I live in Florida so I don't have to worry about any attacker wearing a big heavy coat, so I will stick with my 185 + P Golden Sabers. That said, I would not feel undergunned with 230 ammo, regardless if its hollow point of FMJ. Also, that federal round will only acheive that stopping power (96 or 98 % ????) out of a full, 5 inch, barrel. Out of anything shorter, it will not have enough velocity to expand.
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  #5  
Old 05-20-2002, 05:16 PM
Double Naught Spy Double Naught Spy is offline
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The expansion of a 185 +P hollowpoint will not put more energy on target because it expanded. I don't know if that is what you meant or not, Paraordp13.

185 +P may be faster, but it is lighter and that means that it will not carry the momention a 230 gr round will carry. That can be crucial for penetration through media such as clothing.

Assuming the target has on a vest, chances are they will not suffer broken ribs. It can and does happen, but it is more likely to be singular than plural. Also, many people who experience broken "ribs" in the front actually do not experience the breakage of a bone, but of cartilage. Ribs come around only about 1/3 from each side and that leaves about 1/3 or slightly more in the front that is not rib. The tissue connecting the ribs to the sternum is costal cartilage. It is very flexible (compared to bone). One type of common "rib" break is the separation of the costal cartilage from the actual rib itself or even breakage of the cartilage. When the cartilage breaks, you don't have the stereotypical bone shard fragments dancing around to puncture things too much.

People can be harmed while wearing a ballistic vest and may received some deep bruising. Aside from the bruise, one of the common complaints is the blistering or apparent removel of skin layers from under the impact itself that is likely due to the short duration and high intensity pressure experienced. In healthy humans, extremely short duration events, even of high intensity, are sometimes better withstood than longer duration events of less intensity. Add to that the fact that a ballist vest distributes the evergy over a much great area than the bullet would do itself, judging from blisters and bruises to be several times the original area of the bullet, and you find that the same 500 lbs psi is not 500 psi over 4-8 square inches and so the energy felt by the recipient wearing the vest is more akin to a punch and a very short term and momentumless punch at that, maybe more like a punch-slap.

I noticed that you mentioned the 96-98% stopping power. That would be Marshall and Sanaow's data for one shot stops. While very interesting, the data are very biased by the collection scheme used since any event with more than one round striking the target was not included in the study. Also, I believe that if you will check for the 230 gr Hydrashok, not all of the successful stops resulted in expansion of the bullets. In other words, nothing special happened with the Hydrashok versus a regular ball round.

Expansion out of handguns is iffy at best given the velocity of the rounds leaving the guns, plus it is dependent on what is struck by the rounds, whether it is all soft tissue or if hard tissue is struck.

As for 230 gr rounds such as Hydrashoks not expanding in anything shorter than a 5" barrel, that simply is not true. According to March 2001 Shooting Times, a 230 gr Fed. Hydrashok performed better than it was rated for a 5" barrel out of a 4.25" barrel, being clocked at 868 in that barrel and 901 in the 5". Suffice it to say that as you shorten the barrel for rounds originally designed for a 5" barrel launch, you are more likely to get failure to expand for pistol rounds with iffy expansion to start with, but that does not mean that expansion will not occur.

And, you don't need the +P to get good expansion. If you like the 185 round and don't like the added recoil of +P ammo, Speer Gold Dot 185s (not +P) will give good performance in 3.16-6.0" barrels, results indicating expansion with each with there being only 0.025" difference in expansion between the 5.0 barrel (0.597") and the 3.16" barrel (0.572). Out of the 4.25" barrel, expansion was close to the 5.0" barrel at 0.592".
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  #6  
Old 05-20-2002, 06:13 PM
bountyhunter bountyhunter is offline
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The actual energy carried by any moving projectile is given by 1/2mV(squared) where "m" is mass and "v" is velocity. You can see that the mass is a liner term, while velocity is squared. That means you will get more energy making a 30% lighter projectile go 30% faster (if you can).

Energy transfer is the real bitch to model or predict because it is so dependent on where on the body it hits. The wider expanding cartridge will be more successful at transferring mometum energy into "push" force on the target, of course shredding most of what's in it's path. Penetration is another factor contributing to total damage, again dependent on where it hits and what it has to go through. The wider expanded slug will penetrate less because it is spending it's energy more quickly as it penetrates.
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  #7  
Old 05-20-2002, 07:43 PM
Paraordp13 Paraordp13 is offline
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Yes, I do believe that more expansion will also equal to more energy being taken up by the "target".

A fmj will have more penetration than a hollow point, because it will have less resistence. This is the argument made about useing the 44 mag, with full power hunting loads, for personal defense. The bullets are designed to offer expansion and pentration on tougher sunbjects (animals). In the case of a human the bullet will go right through, without depositing much energy into the target, which makes it a waste as a defensive weapon. Obviously it will kill due the destrustion of vital tissue, but it will not provide much stopping power (this is assuming a center mass hit). Of course this also depends on the desire, and mental and physical state of the attacker, but Marshall's data shows that in actual shooting the 44 mag has not been as affective in stopping the fight as one might expect.

I think we can all agree that expansion has to do with velocity (as well as the resistance that the bullet experiences). In which case a +P bullet will expand more than a standard pressure round. As the bullet expands it will not penetrate as much, or as quickly, as a fmj. If it stays in the target, then all its energy will have been obsorbed by the target.

I believe that a 185 +p round will completely penetrate a human, even with a hit to center mass (as I stated before, here in Florida I don't have to worry about a thug wearing a ton of heavy clothing. Under my situation, the bullet would meet a T-shirt, or at worst a light jacket. However, I also believe that in certain cirumstances were a bullet meets alot of heavy clothing than it may not completely penetrate. But I have no doubt that it will go through at least one layer of thick clothing and make it to the vitals.) Still it will not penetrate as quickly as a smaller (diameter) bullet will. In which case it will spend more time in the target, which will translate into more energy dispersal.

Yes a heavy bullet will carry momentum than a heavier one, especially at greater distances. But say at 7 yards, the 185 + P will have more energy than a 230 grain round will. In which case I disagree with you, when you say that 500 pounds of energy spread out over an area of 4-8 square inches will feel like a punch. I don't know much about the human body, so I cannot argue with you about the damage that would happen to the ribs. But I do believe that 500 pounds of kinetic energy, even if it is spread out over a certain area, will break bones. I have heard that people who have had the Hiemlic (please forgive my horrible spelling of this word, but I hope you will get the idea) performed on them, have had their ribs broken so badly that the bone fragments have punctured thier lungs. If the force of a human squeezing your chest can have such an effect, than a bullet carrying a substantial amount of energy can do the same.

I should have cleared up what I meant about the 230 grain round out of shorter barrels. Yes, out of a 4 inch barrel it probably will have enough velocity to expand. However, out of anything shorter, like 3 1/2 or less, it will not achieve enough velocity to expand.

I do not understand what you mean when you say "I noticed that you mentioned the 96-98% stopping power. That would be Marshall and Sanaow's data for one shot stops. While very interesting, the data are very biased by the collection scheme used since any event with more than one round striking the target was not included in the study."

I have no knowledge of whether those bullets expanded or not.
However, I believe that with all things being equal, a bullet that expands will have more "stopping power" than one that does not. Either way, it still has to do with the person that is being hit.

Yes, I do know that a standard pressure 185 round will offer expansion, and that a +P round is not neccessary. I only reason I chose to carry the +p round is because it shots well out of my gun, and due to the all steel construction and wide grip (like my name states a Para P-13) the recoil is not out of hand.
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  #8  
Old 05-20-2002, 10:51 PM
nemesis nemesis is offline
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I am amazed that there are actually people here using their heads. Is that allowed?

Got to tell you this. Just picked up a mess of Remington Golden Saber .45 ACP 185 grain +P rounds from Keisler's for $6.49 a box (of 25) and its not reclassified stuff either. I don't know if they have any left or not.

Last edited by nemesis; 05-20-2002 at 10:53 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-21-2002, 04:20 AM
Russ45 Russ45 is offline
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Keep informed.......

Two very good web sites to help in making an informed decision on personal defense ammo selection are www.ammolab.com and www.tacticalforums.com (the ground zero and terminal effects sections).

regards
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  #10  
Old 05-22-2002, 04:40 AM
Northern Extrem Northern Extrem is offline
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Another option

Though I feel 185 and 230gr bullets are both awesome, I often wonder why nobody looks at the 200gr bullets.

They leave the barrel faster than a 230gr, and carry more weight to the target than a 185gr. I hate to sound like I'm straddling the fence, and I can assure you that I 'm not. I've looked at allot of lab data, and understand both sides of the "light and fast vs. heavy and slow" debate. Truth is, both sides have issues in their favor.

The 200gr bullets seem to get all the penetration the 230gr bullets do, but seem to do it with more reliable expansion like the 185gr. All the experts who support penetration seem to agree that 13-16 inches is needed. Almost every quality 200gr bullet I've seen lands right in that range. They never seem to come up short like (some!!!) 185gr bullets, and they don't over penetrate like (some!!!) 230gr bullets (22"+)

I've been carrying 200gr Gold Dot and CCI JHP Lawmen in my Kimber Pro-Carry HD (4" barrel) for a while now, and I donít feel I'm sacrificing energy or penetration at all. It seems to answer almost all my needs.

I'm sure I'll hear it from both sides of the isle, but if I'm wrong I'm always interested in new and better ideas. Any support is appreciated also.




Train Hard, Train Often, And Be SAFE!!!
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  #11  
Old 05-22-2002, 11:00 AM
Paraordp13 Paraordp13 is offline
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I would perfer the 200 grain round also, except that I don't like the available choices. The 200 grain Gold dots you carry, give to much expansion in my opinion. I have seen gold dots in 9mm, 40, 357 mag, and 45 penetrate car windshields like they weren't even there; only some of the cor-bon rounds were able to duplicate this-the hyrda-shocks, golden sabers, sxt, xtp, and even one fmj all failed! In which case that means that they will penetrate right through the human body with no problem. Now, maybe in a cold weather area were people are wearing HEAVY clothing then this probably wont be a problem, but here in Florida it would.
I am sure I am going to catch alot of heat for this one, but I really don't like the XTP bullet. I know that its famous, every custom ammo maker uses it, etc, etc. Still, I just don't like it. Personally it has never been as accurate as the my golden sabers is, and it does not expand as much as it either.
The only other option is the round from cor-bon, again to much penetration, but the biggest problem is that its hard to find. If I want some I have to special order it, and since the 185 +P GS is on the shelf, and my gun likes it, then I have no need to mess with a good thing.
But I would love for either remigton, or federal to make a 200 grain round in either the GS or Hydra-shock bullet.
Oh, I have never heard of the speer lawman round, but it sounds very interesting and I will have to give it a look.
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  #12  
Old 05-22-2002, 05:45 PM
lchurch lchurch is offline
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Paraordp13, please do some research. Energy and momentun have nothing to do with terminal ballistics. Tissue distruction and blood loss are the factors.

Too much expansion? The bigger the hole the more tissue is distroyed. An exit wound is not bad in and of its self.

Please chech out:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/



larry
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  #13  
Old 05-22-2002, 11:34 PM
pmbiker pmbiker is offline
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The posts above are reeaally splitting hairs. Although this is a good topic to gain some valuable information, don't give published test results too much credit. Here's the facts: a .45 round is big, heavy and although comparitively slow still moving near or over the speed of sound. If I shoot a BG in my house and the round gets stuffed by his(or her) down parka or over penatrates, by god I'll shoot again and keep shooting until the threat is over. And for what it's worth, I load my TRP with XTP 200+p. No ballistics reports, just a local gun shop owner telling stories of wild boar and javelina hunting with them. Very effective.

later
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  #14  
Old 05-23-2002, 02:58 PM
Paraordp13 Paraordp13 is offline
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I have nothing against over expansion, just over penetration. Obviously the more the expansion, then the more tissue damage that will occur.
One of the key factors involved in expansion is the velocity of the bullet, combined with the ammount of resistance it meets. That is why I perfer the + P round. With all things being equal, a bullet that is traveling at a higher rate of speed will expand to a greater diameter than a slower moving projectile.
As far as the XTP goes I do not doubt its effectiveness, its just not my first choice. If the XTP was all I had I would still feel very well comfortable carring it. I just perfer the Golden Saber as a defensive bullet, and since it works well in my gun then I have no reason to change.
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  #15  
Old 05-23-2002, 11:06 PM
nemesis nemesis is offline
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I just bought a bunch of Remington Golden Sabre .45 ACP 185 grain +P's from Keisler. I followed a link to Remingtons site and found Remingtons ballistic comparison chart for their Golden Saber ammo. Very interesting. The +P 185's are showing some very credible performance and seemed to be ahead of the 230's anyway you can measure it.

I don't mind arguing facts but have a tough time reasoning with someone who has decided something is better cuz or because they "like them".
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