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  #1  
Old 04-29-2007, 11:10 PM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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STI Trojan Frame Issue? <PICS>




Sorry for the cross post, but this issue is buried in another thread with a different brand 1911. This appears to be the ejector staking pin pushing out through the frame inside the magwell of my Trojan .45.

Does anybody else have this condition with their single stack STI cast frames?:



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  #2  
Old 04-30-2007, 03:34 PM
rbert0005 rbert0005 is offline
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So what exactly is your problem?

Bob
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  #3  
Old 04-30-2007, 03:49 PM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbert0005
So what exactly is your problem?

Bob
It looks like the ejector staking tube is pushing out through the frame inside the magwell. Wanted to know if this was typical. Have similar, but far worse condition with a Dan Wesson as detailed in another post.
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  #4  
Old 05-01-2007, 07:12 AM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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That looks a bit low. It's not a casting flaw?
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  #5  
Old 05-01-2007, 10:33 AM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick0610
That looks a bit low. It's not a casting flaw?
It measures in line with the ejector stake hole on the side of the frame. From the picture it does look lower.

Anyway, I ran the pictures by STI and was told that yes this does happen where the pin bulges out the frame when installed. As long as the ejector never gets loose or never needs to be removed and re-installed it is not likely to be an issue under normal use. In the event that a new pin needs to be set, it may pop through the frame where it is already weak.

STI's response was that this would not be acceptable on their more expensive guns, but OK on the Trojan; a low end gun. The only fix is to replace the frame.
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  #6  
Old 05-01-2007, 10:48 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Saw the pictures of DWs with that flaw.
Tolerance stacking with numerous copies and copies of copies.
Do you reckon that is why Springfield has started gluing in ejectors, the industry has forgotten where that hole goes?
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  #7  
Old 05-01-2007, 12:18 PM
Paulinski Paulinski is offline
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How can they consider 1k gun a low end gun is beyond me?
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  #8  
Old 05-01-2007, 12:53 PM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulinski
How can they consider 1k gun a low end gun is beyond me?
I am right there with you on that.
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  #9  
Old 05-01-2007, 02:50 PM
G. Freeman G. Freeman is offline
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Hey Uberdog,
I once bought a brand new colt several years ago. When I came home to field strip the pistol, the ejector pin actually came out through the frame, and was gouging the mag.

I was young and stupid then, so I filed down the pin and just sold it to a gun shop. I should have asked for a frame replacement from Colt.

I've owned close to 20 1911's and have never seen that again. That is one of the things I check for when purchasing a 1911.

I'm not surprised by STI's answer. I don't think any manufacturer would want to replace a frame for that reason, however, I wonder what would be their response if the ejector breaks off with hard use.
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2007, 03:26 PM
Gunfighter13 Gunfighter13 is offline
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They need to replace that frame for free. Very poor workmanship.
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  #11  
Old 05-01-2007, 03:40 PM
rbert0005 rbert0005 is offline
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I don't think you need to worry about it at all.

In the real world of toolmaking, any hole that has at least 3/4 of the hole remaining is just as strong as a complete hole.

So long as there is none of the actual pin protruding you are set. Even if you have to replace the pin down the road there should be no problem if care is taken.

Enjoy the gun,
Bob
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2007, 05:05 PM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbert0005
I don't think you need to worry about it at all.

In the real world of toolmaking, any hole that has at least 3/4 of the hole remaining is just as strong as a complete hole.

So long as there is none of the actual pin protruding you are set. Even if you have to replace the pin down the road there should be no problem if care is taken.

Enjoy the gun,
Bob
Thanks Bob. That makes sense and frankly I do not have the fight in me to push the issue with STI. I can see it from their side of things in that this is a borderline issue that may or may not get worse. I am very fond of this particular gun and because of that perhaps a little hyper-sensitive. A little jumpy too because I have a Dan Wesson with a worse version of this condition.

Anyway, as mentioned and as others have stated, this is something to look for when buying new or used.
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2007, 09:51 PM
Taffnevy Taffnevy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberdog
STI's response was that this would not be acceptable on their more expensive guns, but OK on the Trojan; a low end gun.
Did they really say that to you, or is that what you heard? I can't imagine they actually said that to you, or even think it.

All of their single stack pistols except the Lawman and Legacy have frames made by the exact same process.
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2007, 11:45 PM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taffnevy
Did they really say that to you, or is that what you heard? I can't imagine they actually said that to you, or even think it.

All of their single stack pistols except the Lawman and Legacy have frames made by the exact same process.
It was in an email, to be fair & accurate here is a quote:

"Your unit in particular is on the borderline, but would be acceptable on the lower end guns like the Trojan as long as function was not affected, and it didn’t break thru. On the higher end STI product we start to nit pick that stuff out of the guns."

I was not entirely clear on what this meant and replied with:

"So to clarify: this is not something covered under warranty for this Trojan? I want to be sure I understand. If it is not covered I will sell the gun. Not a fan of wait and see, just more headaches in the long run."

Which resulted in the final response on the issue:

"Not right now its not because its not a problem. If the ejector breaks off, or comes loose, and the ejector hole breaks thru the frame, resulting in loss of function, or the criteria I mentioned earlier it will be covered under warranty. We would replace the frame if necessary. Currently it’s not a problem nor do I expect it would be under normal use so “wait and see”, or warranty shouldn’t be a consideration."

Last edited by uberdog; 05-01-2007 at 11:59 PM. Reason: ADD INFO
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  #15  
Old 05-02-2007, 06:32 AM
Taffnevy Taffnevy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberdog
It was in an email, to be fair & accurate here is a quote:

"Your unit in particular is on the borderline, but would be acceptable on the lower end guns like the Trojan as long as function was not affected, and it didn’t break thru. On the higher end STI product we start to nit pick that stuff out of the guns."

I was not entirely clear on what this meant and replied with:

"So to clarify: this is not something covered under warranty for this Trojan? I want to be sure I understand. If it is not covered I will sell the gun. Not a fan of wait and see, just more headaches in the long run."

Which resulted in the final response on the issue:

"Not right now its not because its not a problem. If the ejector breaks off, or comes loose, and the ejector hole breaks thru the frame, resulting in loss of function, or the criteria I mentioned earlier it will be covered under warranty. We would replace the frame if necessary. Currently it’s not a problem nor do I expect it would be under normal use so “wait and see”, or warranty shouldn’t be a consideration."

Wow, that's messed up!
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  #16  
Old 05-02-2007, 06:47 AM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulinski
How can they consider 1k gun a low end gun is beyond me?
Easy for them. It is a cast frame and much less gun than the other guns they make when you consider some go to #$3000+.
When you're working for quantity rather than quality (no slam here just less quality control to get numbers) you get this stuff...I'm sure STI will fix the problem if they aren't already.
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  #17  
Old 05-02-2007, 07:07 AM
Gunfighter13 Gunfighter13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberdog
It was in an email, to be fair & accurate here is a quote:

"Your unit in particular is on the borderline, but would be acceptable on the lower end guns like the Trojan as long as function was not affected, and it didn’t break thru. On the higher end STI product we start to nit pick that stuff out of the guns."

I was not entirely clear on what this meant and replied with:

"So to clarify: this is not something covered under warranty for this Trojan? I want to be sure I understand. If it is not covered I will sell the gun. Not a fan of wait and see, just more headaches in the long run."

Which resulted in the final response on the issue:

"Not right now its not because its not a problem. If the ejector breaks off, or comes loose, and the ejector hole breaks thru the frame, resulting in loss of function, or the criteria I mentioned earlier it will be covered under warranty. We would replace the frame if necessary. Currently it’s not a problem nor do I expect it would be under normal use so “wait and see”, or warranty shouldn’t be a consideration."
I don't know of any other gun maker that would tell you that a defect in their gun is OK because it is their low-end gun. Kimber, SA, Colt, Wilson, LB, EB all would have you send that gun to them so the frame could be replaced. A Texas company to. What a shame. No STI guns or products for me.
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2007, 10:07 AM
Paulinski Paulinski is offline
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I agree it doesn't matter is the gun costs $500 or $5000 if there is a defect the gun should be sent back to the factory for examination. I own two STI Trojans .45 and 9mm while I haven't fired either of them yet this issue has got me worried as well.

To the original poster I would insist on sending the gun back for examination. You mention selling the gun, what are you going to put back in the description?

"STI Trojan low round count possible crack in the magwell."

Paul
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  #19  
Old 05-02-2007, 10:24 AM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunfighter13
I don't know of any other gun maker that would tell you that a defect in their gun is OK because it is their low-end gun. Kimber, SA, Colt, Wilson, LB, EB all would have you send that gun to them so the frame could be replaced. A Texas company to. What a shame. No STI guns or products for me.
I have had more than my fair share of problems with guns over the years. I buy, sell and trade a lot since it is my main hobby. In that time I have had to deal with a lot of the major gun makers to solve problems. S&W stands out as one company that will do what it takes to get things right. I was also very impressed with Kimber who issued me new guns when I had problems with a pair of Warriors.

Maybe I am asking too much, but $1000 is a good piece of change for me and I expect a certain level of quality control on a gun at this price point. Before this interaction I had been very impressed with STI. So much so that I bought a stainless Trojan and last week ordered another gun that my FFL tells me arrived today. There have been minor issues with slide stops and other small parts, but STI has been excellent in sending out replacement parts and providing information. The frame issue here is a grey area.

So I am a bit stuck in this situation. I understand, to a certain extent, not wanting to replace a frame for a "borderline issue", but this then puts the burden back on the customer. This part may never fail, or it may fail when I need the gun most... After dropping $3600 on three STI guns in last couple of months I think I am a good "low end" customer.

As much as I love this particular gun I will most likely trade it away. It will always be in the back of my mind that I cannot trust this gun 100%.
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  #20  
Old 05-02-2007, 04:04 PM
Hessy Hessy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberdog
It was in an email, to be fair & accurate here is a quote:

"Your unit in particular is on the borderline, but would be acceptable on the lower end guns like the Trojan..."
That's a disgusting statement coming out of reputable company.
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  #21  
Old 05-12-2007, 03:23 PM
hdm25 hdm25 is online now
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That's messed up. I had a service issue with STI that was resolved quickly and to my satisfaction. Before you sell the gun or become disgusted with the company, contact a couple of other people in the company by phone and express your concern and your disgust that you are considered the purchaser of a "low end" gun when you've bought multiples over the last month or so (or whatever your post said) and see what they will do.
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  #22  
Old 05-13-2007, 01:37 PM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdm25
That's messed up. I had a service issue with STI that was resolved quickly and to my satisfaction. Before you sell the gun or become disgusted with the company, contact a couple of other people in the company by phone and express your concern and your disgust that you are considered the purchaser of a "low end" gun when you've bought multiples over the last month or so (or whatever your post said) and see what they will do.
Going up the chain may or may not have an impact on this situation. Frankly I am pretty sick and tired of chasing after companies to stand behind their product. If it is a hassle this time, it will be a hassle the next time.

Oddly I had this same condition to a worse extent on a Dan Wesson. They too balked at doing anything about it, but after a LOT of back and forth have the gun at the factory to change out the frame under warranty. Right on the heels of this end result another forum member found the same condition on his Dan Wesson and had an easier time getting full satisfaction.

So, I am pretty bummed out about STI position here, but will just vote with my feet on this one. I have three STI single stacks, two Trojans and a Duty One. Both Trojans had issues, but the other one just need a few new parts and otherwise is well sorted. The one with the defective frame has been stone reliable. Ironic.
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  #23  
Old 05-13-2007, 02:41 PM
invssgt invssgt is offline
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This is not good on a gun at this price, nor is thier response to the issue. Either the frame was cast with an oversize mag well, the front leg of the ejector wasn't notched properly or the pin hole was mislocated- or some combination thereof. I was recently contacted by an officer looking for a solid 1911 for a duty/recreational shooting giun, and the Trojan was one of the models I recommended that he give a serious look. He hasn't bought his gun yet, and he will be getting a link to this thread and an admonition to think twice before spending his money with STI.
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2007, 03:30 PM
uberdog uberdog is offline
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To wip a dead horse:

I should add to say that I even offered to pay for a new forged frame from STI because I like this gun, but was turned down on that as well. I thanked Chris for his very complete answers and gave up.

Here is how the last exchange went:

Question:
Can I send this gun back to STI for inspection?

Answer:
That is not necessary, your photography is excellent and I can see exactly what you are referring to. Returning it would serve no purpose.

Question:
I need to trust my guns with my life and the idea of a the ejector breaking on this Trojan is not a comforting idea regardless of warranty.

Answer:
The ejector in your gun isn't at any more or less of a chance of breaking than any other of your guns. Changing the frame to forging wound change that aspect.

Question:
Would STI replace the frame for me if I paid for the new forged part?

Answer:
I'm sorry, but no. We discontinued the custom shop several years ago, we are organized strictly as a production facility.

Question:
Having spent $3600 on STI guns in the last two months I am already a fan, but this particular situation makes me nervous about quality control of the cast frames.

Answer:
As a fan, I'm sure you understand that we would not knowingly foist an unsafe item on anyone. You have no cause for worry about most of today's cast frames in general (we believe that Mr. Ruger has proven that) and ours in particular. We take our castings to the same level as we do our forgings on the Rockwell C scale. I see no reason that the ejector, or frame on your gun is going to break under normal, or elevated use.
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  #25  
Old 05-13-2007, 04:32 PM
Taffnevy Taffnevy is offline
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You should send a link of this thread to Chris. It's got 800+ views, and I for one would not buy another Trojan after reading this.

I'm certain that more than a couple people who were on the fence about a Trojan went with their second choice after reading this. Any money they saved by not dealing with your issue they have lost several times over. Stupid way to run a company.

I think someone at STI needs to swallow their pride and fix your gun.
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