1911Forum
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > Other Firearms & Tools > General Rifles and Shotguns


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-30-2002, 12:35 AM
GI-45 GI-45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ
Age: 35
Posts: 1,059
MP-5 vs. M4 Carbine




Since .223 rifles (such as the M4 Carbine) have become increasingly smaller & more compact over the years, what advantages does a submachine gun (such as the MP-5) have?

The way I see it, the advantages of the MP-5 are its high capacity mags, compact size & ease of use. But the same can be said of the M4, right? Plus, the M4 has a much more powerful caliber. (I'll admit that I've never had the opportunity to fire either of these firearms.)
__________________
Bart: Can I get armor-piercing cyanide-tipped bullets, too?
Uncle Herb: It's in the Constitution, son!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-30-2002, 12:38 AM
Mus Mus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tacoma, WA
Age: 37
Posts: 11,105
not a ballistic expert or a reloader but isnt it a pain in the ass to get a 5.56 to go subsonic? and at that point where is your energy with such a tiny bullet going that slow. the suppressed mp5sd's are supposed to be pretty darn quiet.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-30-2002, 01:34 AM
mcgrubbs mcgrubbs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Artesia, NM, USA
Posts: 658
I am not real sure about the mag capacity issue either. Don't MP-5 mags hold 33 rounds?? AR mags are usually carried with 30 round mags.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-30-2002, 02:12 AM
Mus Mus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tacoma, WA
Age: 37
Posts: 11,105
they are thirty rounders in every video game I ever played


*taptaptap* "Tango down!"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-30-2002, 10:08 AM
MikeWrite MikeWrite is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mesa, AZ
Age: 43
Posts: 15
You're asking a question that special police teams have been asking over the past decade. Many of them have abandoned the MP5 in favor of various short .223s like the M4. Obviously, the M4 has all the advantages of the MP5 that you mentioned, plus the controls -- especially the magazine and bolt releases -- are more ergonomic for most people.

To the best of my knowledge, the big reason the MP5 became popular was the supposedly lesser penetrative abilities of the 9mm compared to rifle/carbine cartridges. This perceived safety, along with the weapon's good accuracy and easy controllability compared to the shotgun and pistol, propelled the MP5's popularity. Much gunwriter propaganda probably didn't hurt, either. However, since the .223 overpenetration myth has been put to rest over the past decade, there would seem to be few reasons not to use an M4-type weapon. Reference the tests by FBI, Gunsite, various police departments, etc.

There is the noise issue, however. 9mm is easier to effectively suppress (hence, the original heavy-weight "subsonic" bullets in that chambering) than .223. Also, 9mm supposedly "seems" quieter in enclosed spaces than .223. The deciBel scales I've seen don't support this, however (9mm is 160 dB, .223 155 dB). While I doubt many would notice .223 noise when under deadly stress, it could certainly cause hearing loss. But so could 9mm, according to these dB scales. Noise issues with either chambering are resolved with electronic ear protection, anyway.

The .223 has a serious edge in power over the rather weak-kneed 9mm. The MP5 has been produced in other chamberings, but they are still pistol cartidges, complete with lesser power and looping trajectories.

The sound-suppression issue aside, since it is a rather specialized use of weaponry, I don't see any reason the MP5 would be better than an M4, assuming the latter is reliable. The M4 is clearly the better general-purpose weapon, having better range, power, ergonomics, and accuracy than the MP5. I think that, except for specialized uses, the MP5 has seen its day.

Mike
__________________
"Bushido is all very well in its way, but it's no match for a .30-06." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-30-2002, 11:06 AM
guy sajer's Avatar
guy sajer guy sajer is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,562
MW , very good summary . Given their similar size and weight . The superior range , accuracy and energy of the .223/M4 make it the logical choice .
Mitch
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-30-2002, 01:34 PM
Alfadog Alfadog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 476
I'll take a stab at this one, after first stating that I have zero experience with either weapon. The first advantage of the SMG is compactness. Yes, there are .223s with short SMG-length barrels (the HK53 comes to mind), but when you shorten the barrel on a .223 that much, it loses a lot of its advantage over the 9mm. I've read a little about this and it seems that about the shortest .223 barrel you would want is 14.5".

Regarding the decibel figures cited by MikeWrite, I think the .223 would have had to have been fired from a much longer barrel to have a lower decibel figure than a 9mm. Think about it--the .223 burns about 4 or 5 times as much powder as the 9mm. Now that I think about it, the powder charge of a .223 is about the same as a .44 Magnum. Most of us have probably had the experience of sharing an indoor range with a .44 Mag shooter, and we all know that a .44 Mag out of a long-barrelled revolver (about the same barrel length as an MP-5 or HK53) is MUCH louder than a 9mm pistol.

The MP-5 also seems to have a better reputation for reliability than the AR-15/M-16 series. Not making a judgment on that, just stating my observations.
__________________
"If there must be trouble, let it be in my time, that my child may live in peace."--Thomas Paine.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-30-2002, 03:18 PM
t-tac t-tac is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Age: 52
Posts: 1,028
I own a Car-15 and a SW5 (MP5 copy).
After using both I think the Car-15 can work at close and long ranges.Where the MP5 is more for close to 50 yard ranges.
I also read that the MP-5 lasts longer than the AR with SEAL Teams that put thousand of rounds through them.
I feel they both have there place.
My 8 year old son doesn't let me shoot the SW-5 too much.
He makes a real hog of himself when dad is buy the ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-31-2002, 12:01 AM
themao themao is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 912
The M4 has FAR greater knock down power, and .223 bullets are less likely to exit the bad guy and kill someone behind him unlike 9 mm bullets. This is due to the properites of the .223 projectile to fragment rather than expand (even the 55 grain M193 FMJs). Also, M4s are cheaper, but yes the MP5 lasts longer and is the better gun (sorry, biased towards HKs).

If you're a SWAT guy, the ideal set up for CQB entry or even 100 yard+ engagements is a M4 with a nice optic, back up sights, pistol grip and a nice suppressor so he doesn't blow his ear drums out. Yes, the MP5 is more quiet hands down (I don't have the dB stuff with me). The MP5SD series is only bested by the Mini Uzi with a large can in terms of "suppressed fire".

By the way Mus, you don't make the .223 round go subsonic in order to "silence" the report. The report is from the rapid expansion of gases from the explosion in the gun, not the bullet whizzing by itself. Silencers work by increasing the amount of time it takes for the gases to leave the gun's muzzle, thus dissipating that energy over a greater period of time (lower intensity or dB). A subsonic .223 would be like shooting a pellet gun. You'd still want that bullet to fly around 2600-2800 fps to effectively kill anything.

You ought to go over to AR15.com if you have more questions. Those are the experts that informed me of most of this stuff.

themao
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-31-2002, 03:17 AM
LAK LAK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,305
Bullets going 2600-2800 fps are still moving at supersonic velocity - and there will be a loud "crack" from the bullets breaking the sound barrier. As anyone who has been shot at or worked the target pits at a range will tell you it is quite loud.

In a properly moderated weapon of the semi-auto type firing a pistol cartridge - the noisiest element will be the cycling of the action. So for maximum noise supression a bolt or other manual action is preferred. Pistol cartridges kill just fine at 600-1000 fps - and minus sonic crack. The average .45 is going 800-850 fps. Ideal. Most 9mm's clock 1120-1200 - hence the "subsonic" 147 grain load at 950 fps.

While a sound moderator (or commonly called "silencers") do act on the same principle of a motor vehicle muffler with baffles to slow and disperse the expanding gases that "make noise" - the added element of a projectile travelling at supersonic velocity will create it's own "bang" - the sonic crack. This will occur at any bullet travelling faster than the speed of sound.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-31-2002, 03:22 AM
LAK LAK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,305
Ah - and I have not used an MP-5; but I have the shorty M16. Ballistically I prefer the 9mm. On reputation and written testimony alone I would take an MP-5 for close-up, inside buildings, streetwork and general urban stuff - or a battlefield where ranges under 100 yards were common. I wish we'd been issued them in the AF.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-31-2002, 11:46 AM
MikeWrite MikeWrite is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mesa, AZ
Age: 43
Posts: 15
Themao,

Agreed that the MP5 is a more reliable design than the "s**ts where it eats" M16/M4 design. I'm not sure the difference in reliability -- at least from a non-military perspective -- makes up for the MP5s lesser ergonomics, though. I'm thinking here of reloading speed, especially.

Alfadog,

You're most probably correct about the dB numbers I quoted. No doubt the .223 figures are from a barrel longer than a "CQB" length AR. Probably the 9mm figure is from a pistol, too. A shorter barrel on the AR, and a longer barrel on the 9mm, would obviously alter the results somewhat. If anyone has some numbers on that, I'd love to see them.

Slightly off the main topic...I note that, in what are probably similar-length barrels, the .223 and the 12 gauge shotgun are basically identical in noise level. Very few people claim the shotgun is a poor choice for, say, home defense, because of the noise level.

Regardless, the wide and inexpensive availability of binaural electronic hearing protection makes the noise issue a considerably lesser one, in my opinion. These are much less expensive than sound suppressors or moderators, and available to everyone without onerous federal procedures. They also don't increase the length and bulk of a weapon like a suppressor does. True, these have to be donned when you pick up the carbine, but a carbine generally has to be retrieved from a closet/safe/trunk/whatever, anyway.

LAK,

The "crack" of a supersonic bullet would seem to be a bit irrelevant once we're off the target range. The bullet will reach the target before the sound does. So if we're talking enemy humans, assuming we hit with our shot, they'll be at least wounded before the sonic crack ever reaches their ears. This is pretty obviously irrelevant in a "CQB" scenario, but is applicable to military sniper activity. Of course, no sniper will choose an M4 OR an MP5, anyhow.

Another advantage of the M4 that I failed to mention in my previous post is its effectiveness on body armor compared to the MP5. .223 will shred lots of armor that will defeat 9mm. This has applications to police officers fighting armored criminals, and may be remotely applicable to some very unusual home defense situations. As well, a "patriot's rifle," useful for resisting foreign or domestic tyranny, should probably be capable of defeating body armor.

Mike
__________________
"Bushido is all very well in its way, but it's no match for a .30-06." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-31-2002, 01:51 PM
Mus Mus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tacoma, WA
Age: 37
Posts: 11,105
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeWrite
LAK,

The "crack" of a supersonic bullet would seem to be a bit irrelevant once we're off the target range. The bullet will reach the target before the sound does. So if we're talking enemy humans, assuming we hit with our shot, they'll be at least wounded before the sonic crack ever reaches their ears. This is pretty obviously irrelevant in a "CQB" scenario, but is applicable to military sniper activity. Of course, no sniper will choose an M4 OR an MP5, anyhow.

I think it would be quite relevant if you were talking about eleminating more than one sentry on somone elses perimeter. that way if they are paired up or if the sentry has a dog the first warning that something is wrong is the dog or "buddy" hitting the floor, and hopefully you can get rounds on the second target as that is taking place. Basically if you are talking about storming a place guns blazing hands down gimme an M4, but if you are talking about going in on the prowl with less noise gimme an mp5sd
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-31-2002, 03:40 PM
Kevan Kevan is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 2,726
Unless they've evacuated the building and surrounding buildings, police SWAT should be using shotguns for urban use, not weapons with the penetration capability of 5.56 and 9mm. The risk to bystanders from police armed with full-auto weapons negates any value they might have. Yeah, maybe they'll hit the bad guys, but what about the civilians in the line of fire? In addition, full-auto is too tempting for some people to use over good marksmanship. Hence, the military omitting this feature and using 3-round burst. A shotgun is just as effective as a SMG and perhaps more so in some cases. The object is not to subdue criminals with overwhelming firepower anyway. This is not war; some SWAT teams are forgetting that in their quest for more and more military hardware. The object is to subdue the criminal without the use of deadly force and, if that is not possible, to use as little as possible to mimimize the risk to bystanders. Shootouts with bullets flying all over the place from both sides might be acceptable in places like Beirut, but should be avoided on U.S. streets. The best alternative is one shot from a sniper.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-31-2002, 09:20 PM
guy sajer's Avatar
guy sajer guy sajer is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,562
No offense meant as this is only my opinion .
LAK obvoiusly has the experience with AF Security Forces . I'm just a bystander .
I don't think one shot from a sniper is going to take out Crackheadbro in his fortified crib . Maybe one shot from the sniper with an RPG . It's gonna take an entry team .
I know several team members and they are not trained to enter a building with their weapons on full auto spraying lead like a Gibson/Willis movie . It's a double tap to center mass . Most of the time they are lucky enough not to have to fire . Recently , they did have to fire and one shot center mass with a Win 223 55gr HP from an AUG folded the guy instantly . The shock to the body is devastating . Their words .
The shotgun is a devastating weapon . However , after 10-12 yds , not all the pellets are going to hit the perp . Then you have .33 cal lead balls at 1200 fps flying wild . Not the best scenario . It also isn't much good if the bad guy has a hostage in front and the team feels they have no choice . The carbine makes the best sense for the headshot . M4 or MP5 .
The .223 with a proper bullet is also less likely to overpenetrate or ricochet . The bullet is more likely to disintegrate when it hits a solid object .
I have fired many rounds through an MP5 in 9mm and .40 . No doubt they are reliable and accurate . A good choice . I also own a Colt M16 Commando and find it to be accurate as well as 100% reliable . As an entry gun , I would feel good with either . The edge would go to .223 if the bad guys have armor like one of you mentioned already .
As a patrol rifle , the M4 wins hands down when it comes to range and vehicle penetration using ball ammo .
Addressing the firearms "lifespan" . How many shots does it take to trash an MP5 receiver or M4 receiver ? Damned if I know . The M4 barrel will wear out before MP5 . So you just slap on a new one . I have thousands of rounds through my M16 .
The MP5SD definately wins the quiet contest . All I remember hearing is the bolt hitting forward and the bullets slapping the dirt bank .
Just my 2 cents.
Mitch

God Bless America and the veterans that gave us the priviledge of living here in freedom .
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-31-2002, 09:45 PM
themao themao is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 912
guy sajer: Shotgun patterns stay pretty tight, but you're right that its no wear near as precise as a carbine or even a SMG. The shotgun balls also penetrate further than .223 as you hinted.

MikeWrite: "I'm not sure the difference in reliability -- at least from a non-military perspective -- makes up for the MP5s lesser ergonomics, though. I'm thinking here of reloading speed, especially. "

I agree with you on this somewhat. In an urban environment, the M4 and MP5 will show no real difference with proper maintenance (I would hope, but I still put my money on the MP5). As for ergonomics, the M4 winds hands down. The magazine release is key. However, the MP5's magazine is stronger since it uses the AK's latch design. However, I do like the push button release on my AR. For a trade off, I'd take the G36K or G36C

themao
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-31-2002, 11:38 PM
LAK LAK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,305
I should clarify that my comments on sound supression were simply matter of fact. The application of suppressed weapons is another matter altogether.

Certainly for sentry removal in a military context it would no doubt be desireable - and perhaps in some very special police applications - mainly hostage rescue operations where it might well be very helpful indeed.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-01-2002, 12:44 PM
MikeWrite MikeWrite is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mesa, AZ
Age: 43
Posts: 15
Quote:
Unless they've evacuated the building and surrounding buildings, police SWAT should be using shotguns for urban use, not weapons with the penetration capability of 5.56 and 9mm.
We're drifting off topic here, but I have to ask, Kevan. All the evidence I've seen recently shows .223/5.56 penetration levels to be safer (i.e. less penetrative in building materials) than 12-gauge slugs or the typical heavy buckshot. Even birdshot shows relatively deep penetration at close range (when it's still in the shot cup). .223 appears to lessen the risk of dangerous wall penetration. A bunch of independent testing -- FBI, Gunsite, various PDs, lots of less formal testing, etc. -- seems to confirm this. Do you have access to information that refutes this? If so, I'd be eager to see it -- it might change my mind on this.

As well, the carbine (or subgun on semiauto) allows more precise delivery of fire than does the shotgun. As you observe, doctrine does seem to be moving from "overwhelming fire superiority" to something more like "surgical semiauto speed shooting" (if I can paraphrase Andy Stanford). This makes especially good sense when facing armored opponents or hostage-takers. An AR set on semiauto is a more accurate and precise weapon than a shotgun, in addition to being more versatile and having greater useful range.

Speaking of armored opponents, I am sure you realize than virtually ALL shotgun loads can be defeated by soft body armor. Penetration on armor, a clear advantage of .223, seems one of the driving factors in weapon selection in the post-North Hollywood era.

And, of course, shotguns have much heavier recoil, are usually longer than M4s or MP5s, hold many fewer rounds, and are vastly slower to reload. (This is probably the stuff of another thread, I realize.)

Quote:
I think it would be quite relevant if you were talking about eleminating more than one sentry on somone elses perimeter.
Okay, but pre-assault sentry or dog removal is a fairly specialized use of weapons, and probably isn't going to happen to anyone this side of Force Recon. If we're going to dwell on the minutiae of weapons use, okay, but I'm not sure popping Iraqi guard dogs was exactly what the author of the original post had in mind. (If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.) When we're talking about general-purpose weapons -- good for defense, police use, military issue, etc. -- I think the M4 still has the clear advantage.

Mike
__________________
"Bushido is all very well in its way, but it's no match for a .30-06." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-01-2002, 12:49 PM
themao themao is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 912
Quote:
Originally posted by LAK
I should clarify that my comments on sound supression were simply matter of fact. The application of suppressed weapons is another matter altogether.

Certainly for sentry removal in a military context it would no doubt be desireable - and perhaps in some very special police applications - mainly hostage rescue operations where it might well be very helpful indeed.
Well, for the military in the jungle or assault, the point is for the suppressor to sound like something OTHER THAN a gun. For CQB or SWAT, it's just to make sure you don't blow your ear drums out, especially with something like a .223 carbine.

This is what I've been told at least by people on AR15.com and LEOs I've met.

themao
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-01-2002, 02:13 PM
Gun Nut's Avatar
Gun Nut Gun Nut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 850
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeWrite


We're drifting off topic here, but I have to ask, Kevan. All the evidence I've seen recently shows .223/5.56 penetration levels to be safer (i.e. less penetrative in building materials) than 12-gauge slugs or the typical heavy buckshot. Even birdshot shows relatively deep penetration at close range (when it's still in the shot cup). .223 appears to lessen the risk of dangerous wall penetration. A bunch of independent testing -- FBI, Gunsite, various PDs, lots of less formal testing, etc. -- seems to confirm this. Do you have access to information that refutes this? If so, I'd be eager to see it -- it might change my mind on this.
Mike,

I think you need to be clear here that 5.56 NATO penetration is only less than 9mm or .40 S&W when used with soft point ammunition at 60-65 grain weights.

I think it was the Gunsite test that showed 62 grain 5.56 penetrating three drywalls, the outer wall of the house, and lodging itself in the outer wall of the neighbors house. All 9mm and .40 rounds rounds penetrated the neighbor's outer wall. Only some .45 rounds did.

00 Buck NEVER penetrated the outer wall of the house it was shot in. A 12 Ga slug is a whole other story.

But, considering the muzzle blast and recoil of a 12 ga shotgun, along with the lower ammunition capacity, and slower handling characteristics, it seems that a CAR-15 / M-4 like weapon with soft-points is a much better choice for home defense.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-01-2002, 07:34 PM
McNamara's Avatar
McNamara McNamara is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 33
Posts: 469
Last fall I had the opportunity to talk guns with a SEAL lieutenant stationed here, but since he claimed not to be much of a gun enthusiast I didn't get as much info as I would have liked!

The trend seems to be away from the MP5 (although it is still used) and toward the M4. It works so well for anything from point-blank out to 300 yards, and it's so easily customizable, that it really gives you the most bang for your buck. A typical setup is a flattop M4 with an ACOG scope and sometimes a KAC suppressor . For room clearing you can always change to a Reflex or Aimpoint, but the ACOG does well from 50-300 yards. The supersonic crack isn't much of an issue, since it's almost impossible to tell from which direction the bullet came. The important thing is that the noise of the carbine is indistinguishable at medium ranges. I don't think the point is to keep the enemy from knowing they're under attack, since a bullet smacking into a person is fairly noticeable, but to keep them from knowing the origin of the attack. That's just my speculation, though; we didn't get that in-depth talking about the suppressor.

Back to the MP5, I imagine it will always be quieter. An M4 is about half again as loud as an M16, and an M16 is about three times as loud as an M9. The MP5 has a longer barrel than the M9, so go figure. I don't know any numbers, I just know what my ears tell me. My solution? Those little mil-spec plugs that go in your ear canal - an audiologist at Bethesda prescribed them to me to prevent any further hearing loss (my left ear is already losing some hearing). They cut out the really damaging high-frequencies and still let you hear people talking, and they fit under any headgear or helmet. They work great on the range in conjunction with regular earmuffs, and this summer I plan to try them out in the woods with SAWs and M16s going off next to my head.

Finally, when it comes down to the type of ammo used, I want my local SWAT team to have the best equipment available and the most lethal ammo for the context - that usually means the M4 and 5.56mm. I think they should have full auto available to them in case it's ever needed, though it rarely is. They're not limited to ball ammo like the military, so they can take advantage of highly lethal but low-penetrating expanding rounds. I'm not worried about them becoming too "para-military," I'm worried about them having less than the best equipment and training to do the job.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-02-2002, 02:07 AM
dsk's Avatar
dsk dsk is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 44,141
FWIW, an M4-type weapon is my main home defense gun. I feel with that I'm sufficiently armed against anything that's mortal. I plan on getting some Wolf Ears or Peltors to keep next to it, so that I can hear well and protect my eardrums at the same time. There was talk about pistol-caliber carbines for defense in major gun rags for awhile, but I think they finally realized that unless it's a proper machine gun, having something that weighs 5 pounds and is nearly a yard in length yet shoots a pistol round isn't the wisest choice. The MP5 is another matter simply because it is short and full-auto, yet it obviously doesn't apply for civilian use.
__________________
Try not to fall into the common trap of wanting to replace everything on your new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out, and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot it for at least 500 rounds, then decide what you don't like and want improved. Vintage 1911's should NEVER be refinished or modified because it ruins any value they had as a collectible firearm.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-02-2002, 10:50 AM
Bob Hostetter Bob Hostetter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Age: 60
Posts: 243
The MP-5 amd the M-4 are both popular within the law enforcement community, both having advantages and disadvantages.

Which is better is often based on what your mission profile is. The MP-5, other then the selector lever, is much more user friendly. Less muzzle blast, less recoil, extra ammo is lighter, and the gun itsself is smaller and lighter. The PDW for example, especially with the stock folded, is very small. The MP-5 is also more reilaible in full auto firing. The disadvantages include not being able to defeat body armor and having a accuracy based effective range of about 50 yards. This can be extended to about 75 yards by using a red dot scope.

The M-4 has a more powerful cartridge, easily defeating body armor, is capable of accurately delivering fire out past 100 yards, and has controls that are better placed and easier operated. Disadvantages include much more recoil in full auto fire, heavier extra ammo as well as the gun being heavier and larger. The bullets tend to over penetate badly, and the muzle blast in confined areas is very bad.

Regarding suppressed fire the MP-5 is very effective, with the bolt making as much noise as the muzzle blast. The M-4, depending on the suppressor, is still much louder at the muzzle, and still delivers the super sonic crack slightly down range. Additionally in order to get an effective suppressor on a M-4 it must be much larger then a MP-5 suppressor making the gun much longer which is a disadvantage in doing entry work.

We use both guns on our Specialty teams, but we use them for different applications. Normally the MP-5 is used on the actual entry team, and the M-4 is used by our snipers and perimeter team members. About the only time a M-4 is used for entry work is if we have reason to believe that the suspect is wearing body armor. And even then the rules of engagement are very limited due to the over penetation problem.

I have had both assigned to me, and am a H&K certified MP-5 operator and instructor. My skill level is about the same with both weapons, the M-4 requiring much more practice in full auto fire. For entry work I prefer the MP-5, for everything else I prefer the M-4.

As a side note, the MP-5 is available in 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, and the new UMP is available in 45acp. It is available is full sized versions (MP-5A3, MP-5SD), Medium sized (PDW), and small (MP-5K). The Colt M-16 family is available with 20", 18", 16", 14.5", and 11.5" versions and in either 9mm or .223. Both are available with a couple of different selector configuations (semiauto, triburst, full auto).

The M-4 triburst system is vastly inferior to the MP-5 system.
__________________
Bob
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-02-2002, 05:57 PM
Kevan Kevan is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 2,726
Bob, your post was good reading. I could almost swear I've heard your name somewhere before, but I can't remember where.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-02-2002, 08:44 PM
LAK LAK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,305
Supersonic crack is an issue if someone wants to remove sentries and not alert the rest of the folk at the target area until well inside. It might also have application where the primary mission is a recce only by a small unit, and an impromptu encounter has to be dealt with - with as little noise as possible.

It would also be very useful in a hostage rescue where the elimination of certain folk quietly might delay a general commotion and firefight - not to mention the demise of your objectives.

There are plenty of applications for moderated guns. These are just a few examples - whether any unit in particular is doing it or not.

And a good example where it would be desireable is in a general response - such as that which occurred at Columbine - where the actual number of shooters was unknown. The use by lead team elements or single troopers in such scenarios might increase the survivability of officers - and any "hostages" or bystanders.

Last edited by LAK; 04-02-2002 at 10:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2011 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved