Magazine disconnect safeties

[mike100]

I reminded myself of an incident I thought I'd share.

As some of you know, the state of California has passed new safety rules for handguns that require a magazine disconnect as well as a loaded chamber indicator. centerfire pistols must comply by 2007, rimfires are already required to be compliant. The only saving grace is that any gun on the safe list now is grandfathered in if they keep it paid up to remain on the list.

I don't really want to talk about that so much as how much safer this may or may not make a gun.

I do feel for the people who have shot themselves dissasembling their glocks and such, but on the otherhand- my incident:

About 12 or 13 years ago I used to go shooting with my ex roomate from time to time. He did kind of act goofy like inserting a magazine in the gun before he handed it to you, but nothing too stupid..yet.

he had a S&W 5906 gun in 9mm that wouldn't fire with the mag removed-he got used to it being that way. We decided to change guns or shooters or something and he unloaded my ruger 22/45 he was shooting (magazine only) and then turned around with his boogerhook on the trigger (safety on fire still) pointing it at me off-handedly. I started dancing and crapping myself and he said "what?.. it can't fire with the mag removed.". I said "Then shoot that target down range with that .22 and prove it."

It fired and he was humbled. I never have gone to shoot with him and he still is pissed about it.

MORAL OF THE STORY: mag disconnect safeties are responsible for complacency and bad habits.

That's how I feel about them... that and a true battle pistol should be able to fire during the reload.

[gaspipes]

I hate California. I don't know how anybody who shoots could stand to live there.

One of 3 things is going to happen.

1) Mfg make guns with the disconnects(which would suck for the rest of us not in a communist state)

2) Mfg will offer a CA gun for sale in PRK and leave the rest of us alone.

3) Mfg are going to eventually say screw CA. We just won't sell any guns there.

I'm hoping for number 3. Then maybe all the good folks who like to shoot will get the hell out of the state and leave it to the fruits and nuts.

What ticks me off about all these safety regulations is they will not make the cops use the "safe" gun.

[mike100]

Pipes..the answer is definitely #3 and the real reason is to diminish handgun sales and related business. If any safety improvements come about because of it, then that is a side benefit to the anti's agenda.

I think people will manage to hurt themselves if they grow up with mag disco guns and then get a "vintage" one used.

did you know that the test we have to take for the handgun permit has 6 basic firearms rules instead of 4?
5th) know how to properly operate your gun (duh- kind of admitting the mag safety issue)
6Th) store away gun safely and guns and ammo SHOULD be stored seperately the word should can't appear in the basic tenants of firearm safety.

anyways, I know there are only four.

[gaspipes]

Mike, I definetly think the politicians motives in CA are to make it difficult for gun manufacturers to do business. It's the same crap with your little approved gun list. They have to submit guns for the drop test and all that. That's just bueracratic BS to make life difficult for honest mfg and citizens. I think the mfg will eventually get tired of jumping through the hoops and say screw it. Which is exactly what the politicians want. I hope they give it to them and gun owners stand up and be counted. Imprinting bullets with micro printing and all that crap...what a joke.

I feel for you guys. I could never take a job there or live there. Shooting is to big a part of my life to put up with idiots like the ones in charge in CA.

[Kilroy6644]

I don't believe mag disconnect safeties are responsible for bad behavior. They just encourage already bad behavior. If you handle a gun correctly, you should never notice that there's a disconnect unless you try to fire without the mag (not counting trigger pull or the drop-freeness(?) of magazines, which should have no effect on how you handle the gun).

[1911 guy]

But magazine disconnects are responsible for a lot of bad triggers. creep, mushy let-off and overtravel are synonymous with mag disconnects. I'll stick with a 1911 and leave Cali to their own devices for now. Left it in 1995 and haven't looked back.

[SG688]

Originally Posted by Kilroy6644

I don't believe mag disconnect safeties are responsible for bad behavior. They just encourage already bad behavior. ... .

It's also well to remember that at least some pistols can be fired despite the magazine disconnect.

The Smith & Wesson 39/59 series pistols can be fired purely by manipulation of the trigger. The engagement of the trigger bar is stronger than the disconnect spring's ability to push the trigger bar away from the sear.

So, if the shooter’s finger is on the trigger before the magazine is removed, the pistol will fire.

That’s been reported as a factor – violation of safety rules was of course primary – in one and perhaps two accidental deaths. Both were, ironically, demonstrations of the safety of the pistol.

[AHancock]

Makes no difference if the weapon has a magazine disconnect or not, safety on or not; everything mechanical fails. If there's a live round in the chamber and you pull the trigger, you better damn well be thinking that the gun is going to fire, and have it pointed at something that it would not disturb you to have a hole in. In the case of a .45, a large hole.

Doc H.

[blackdragon]

It only takes ONE!
Ivan

[Robert Hairless]

Originally Posted by mike100

MORAL OF THE STORY: mag disconnect safeties are responsible for complacency and bad habits.

Your friend is an idiot: Smith & Wesson are not responsible for his mental deficiencies. Let's review the four rules of gun safety:

1. The gun is always loaded.
2. Never point the muzzle at anything you do not intend to destroy.
3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
4. Always be sure of your target and of what lies beyond it.

None of those rules depend on the gun's mechanical safety devices. All of them place sole responsibility for safety on the person with the gun. They are rules so that someone doesn't have to rethink what to do with each gun. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Your friend just hasn't had his first kill yet.

[45caldan]

Ah-freakin-men !!!

[DfromNY]

my new ruger p345 i am waiting to pickup because i am waiting for license has one that is a good thing cuz it can prevent an accident

[gaspipes]

Originally Posted by DfromNY

my new ruger p345 i am waiting to pickup because i am waiting for license has one that is a good thing cuz it can prevent an accident

I got a better idea. Don't buy the gun at all and that will prevent an accident.

[DfromNY]

i realize what u guys are saying that if u follow proper safety guideline no accidents can happen, but unfortanetly some people are not-cautious and if it will prevent an accident from someone mishandling the weapon then y not. Why would u need to fire the gun without a magazine in the gun?

[sarhog]

Originally Posted by DfromNY

...some people are not-cautious and if it will prevent an accident from someone mishandling the weapon then y not. Why would u need to fire the gun without a magazine in the gun?

Smells like bait to me, but I'll bite nonetheless....
Magazine disconnects are, IMO, a hardware solution to a training problem. To take advantage of the "safety" is to promote poor firearm safety.
If your firearm is for range use only, I reckon you wouldn't ever "need" to fire without the magazine inserted. If you ever plan to depend on the weapon for your survival, it becomes pretty important.
Find some firearm training and you will understand.

My crystal ball tells me that you will have a brief stay here....
Good luck though.

[Cochise]

I had a safetey fail on the range. No one could believe it. It locked the slide up, but fired the round.

[DfromNY]

ok i understand in combate where u can need to fire withtout the magazine in but it can work either way the being able to fire without the magazine can hurt u to lets say ur gun gets knocked loose wit no mag in and the perp picks it up and shoots u. I am in not way saying safety features should be put in place instead of safety.

[code3]

Originally Posted by DfromNY

my new ruger p345 i am waiting to pickup because i am waiting for license has one that is a good thing cuz it can prevent an accident

try using puncuation it is a good thing because it prevents people from having to read your entire post without understanding what you are talking about maybe you should take an english lesson or two do you think that might help

Originally Posted by DfromNY

i realize what u guys are saying that if u follow proper safety guideline no accidents can happen, but unfortanetly some people are not-cautious and if it will prevent an accident from someone mishandling the weapon then y not. Why would u need to fire the gun without a magazine in the gun?

For a self defense handgun, any amount of proper training would have informed you that one of the primal rules is you should never experience lockback in a firefight. This is the reason that many law enforcement agencies around the country teach how to remove the magazine from your gun, pull it out with your off hand, and put a fresh magazine in, in one step. The problem with the safety feature in question would arise when there is a break in the firefight and you have sufficient cover and decide that you are going to replace your half-empty magazine. You pull the fresh magazine from your mag pouch and place your palm under the weapon to catch the magazine. Once you release the magazine from your weapon you are in a state of limbo where if the bg confronts you, you will not be able to take defensive action because you have disabled your weapon. Without this feature, you would have been able to shoot at least once.

As was previously stated, if it's a range gun then it doesn't matter, but when your life depends on your ability to fire your weapon, every obstical you place in your way puts you one step closer to being unable to defend yourself. That's also why most department issued weapons don't have an external safety by the way.

[DfromNY]

Sorry i tend to do that when i talk online i do not use punctiation. Yes it is a range gun and it is also my first gun i am only 22 years old and i have paid for my gun but cannot legally possess my gun until i get my permit from the state of new york. Then i can only take to range and fire because i am only getting a target permit

[mike100]

Originally Posted by Robert Hairless

Your friend is an idiot: ......... Your friend just hasn't had his first kill yet.

This is a well known fact in our circle of friends. he doesn't shoot anymore as far as I know. He has two pistols and one of these days I might buy away a cherry custom springfield he has for the good of mankind. It was built by the smith that did my colt, but it's nicer.

That incident just always enters my mind everytime I take a gander at pistols in the display case at a gun shop.

I would bet my gun against his that he couldn't name/paraphrase the 4 rules either. Anyways, there are people who shouldn't be gun people I guess. If I told you about an unsafe thing or two I did in my youth, you'de say the same about me, but I learned and survived.

[Wes Janson]

Another issue I noticed while handling my uncle's Smith: let's say you've got a loaded firearm, and you want to dry-fire it two or three times. Your only real option is to empty out the entire magazine, then replace the mag in the gun. Nitpicking, I know, but it's an added complexity to the safe handling process, and I don't see how increasing complexity can help.

[code3]

Originally Posted by DfromNY

Sorry i tend to do that when i talk online i do not use punctiation.

I was just messin with you

[darby]

I'll play the devil There is nothing wrong with a magazine disconnect. On the job I have to carry a Glock and I wish it did have a magazine disconnect (I also wish you did not have to pull the trigger to disassemble it).

Code3, I have often heard the arguement that if you are reloading and the BG rushes you at least you can get off a shot. This (IMO) is a myth to support building weapons without magazine disconnects. I have yet been able to find any documentation that a officer was killed or put in danger because of a magazine disconnect.

There are several documented cases of LEO's being in a fight for control of the weapon, and ejecting the magazine and 1. going for a BUG, 2. getting distance away, or 3 continuing the fight w/o the weapon. Now to the supermen out there that say they will never lose there weapon, what are you going to do... smoke everyone that gets closer than 21' to you. No matter how good you are it can happen.

Several weapons had disconnects, but the adoption of military (ie glock/beretta) weapons has changed this. The military does not want a disconnect. They want you to be able to fire the weapon even if you only have a handful of rounds and no magazines.

[steveracer]

It's extra parts in the way of a good trigger. My Hipowers don't have them, and my 1076 Smith doesn't. It's like this: If you need anything more than a decocker in a double action, or a thumbsafety in a single action, you are an UNSAFE gun owner. Imagine a revolver with a safety! Or worse, a revolver with an empty cylinder disconnect. You can't fire it unless each chamber in the cylinder is loaded, and there has to be an indicator to tell you that. Why not have it beep when it's loaded? How about a flashing red light?
California is trying to make laws to DISARM you! Any of you with the "it's not too bad" attitude are going to lose your guns, and Cali will NEVER let you have them back. Wait and see.
Back to my point: If something like this is necessary for you to feel safe, then you MAY NOT TOUCH MY GUNS, as you are an unsafe shooter.

[darby]

So I am a unsafe shooter because I like magazine disconnects? Thats great thinking. While on a "range" gun there may be no need for this type of safety, for those that carry, it may save your life. On your thinking why does a single action need a safety? Why does a double action need a decocker. If you follow the the 4 rules you should not need these on any gun.
I carry a glock for a living, but I wish it had a safety. There are many documented cases of where a BG got the gun, but could not figure out the safety to fire the weapon. I train not to be disarmed, I train to stay alive, and I will use every thing possible to stay alive. I don't plan to lose control of my weapon, but I know it can happen. Think how many good guys (citizens and LEO's) would be alive today if their weapon had a safety on it!!