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  #1  
Old 12-12-2005, 10:10 PM
Cyric13 Cyric13 is offline
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9x23 vs 10mm?




Hey guys and gals. Just wanted to ask a question. Which would you chose as an all around caliber for multi-tasking. From hunting, ranging and CCW. I was leaning toward a double-stack. Probally on a STI/SVI frame and slide combo with a bull barrel. Thanks and hope to learn someting new shortly.

later
-C
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2005, 01:07 AM
pangris pangris is offline
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9x23... for two reasons.

First, factory loadings duplicate the 125gr, 1450 fps .357 mag load. Hand loading can eclipse that. Can you get more power from a 10? Yes. Do you need more? Don't know your application - but as a practical matter, a well placed 9x23 is a well placed .357 mag - which means it is a prove "stopper" as handguns go.

Second - if you have a 9x23, you have a 9mm breechface. If you have a 9mm breechface, you can get another barrel fitted to the gun in 9x19 and shoot a whole lot, cheap! Academy sells 9x19 in my neck o the woods for $3.86/box... can't beat it!

I personally like the 9x23 a lot... recoil is VERY controllable, you get 10+1 with a flush mag, it has great ballistics, the 9x19 swap... I think it is the only 9mm Cooper approves of as well
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2005, 06:47 AM
HiVelSword HiVelSword is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pangris
9x23... for two reasons.

First, factory loadings duplicate the 125gr, 1450 fps .357 mag load. Hand loading can eclipse that. Can you get more power from a 10? Yes. Do you need more? Don't know your application - but as a practical matter, a well placed 9x23 is a well placed .357 mag - which means it is a prove "stopper" as handguns go.

Second - if you have a 9x23, you have a 9mm breechface. If you have a 9mm breechface, you can get another barrel fitted to the gun in 9x19 and shoot a whole lot, cheap! Academy sells 9x19 in my neck o the woods for $3.86/box... can't beat it!

I personally like the 9x23 a lot... recoil is VERY controllable, you get 10+1 with a flush mag, it has great ballistics, the 9x19 swap... I think it is the only 9mm Cooper approves of as well
I too, myself am a fan of both cartridges. Hell, I'd love to have one of each and someday I will.

But you mentioned hunting. If it's white tail, you can probably get away with the 9x23 but the 10mm totally has an edge in that dept. You can also swap the barrel, keep the mag and fire 9x25 which is a 10mm necked down to 9mm. It's quite a sizzling load. Same concept as the .357 SIG but even higher velocity. With two more barrels you can convert a 10mm to .40 S&W (not a fan) and .357 SIG (a BIG fan).

Only thing the 10mm platform gives up to the 9x23 is capacity. A few in doublestack guns and one in single stack. Full power 10 will also recoil a bit more than 9x23. Also, converting to .40 S&W for practice isn't as cost effective as converting a 9x23 to 9mm. 9mm practice ammo is very cheap.

That and I used to own a Springfield Armory 1911 in 9mm and man, was that a hoot to shoot! So much fun!

I used to own a Delta Elite as well and don't be put off if some say it's hard to control. I only ever fired full house stuff in it and it felt to me like shooting a .45 ACP +p 185 grain in an all steel 1911. Not that difficult at all.

It's really up to you and your preference. You simply cannot lose if you choose either one. Excellent choices, both.
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2005, 07:33 AM
Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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All good posts and observations so far. I think it will boil down to what you are going to use it for the most. I bought a 10mm Kimber Eclipse this year to hunt deer with, spent all summer working up my hunting loads for it, and have been very pleasantly surprised at the managability of the recoil. I had heard recoil horror stories for years about the 10mm, but have been very happy with the 10mm in an all-steel 1911. I shot .38 super and .357 mag. years ago, and have a very good .357 load for deer that one of my friends likes, but I no longer have that caliber myself. I have heard many good things about the 9x23, but have no experience with it, so can't advise there. IIRC, the 9x23 is basically a .38 super that is 2 mm longer in the casing. Barrel and spring swaps could probably be done to run .38 super, 9x19, or even 9x17 (.380 ACP), since the case head dimensions are the same for all three of the latter. I don't know that there is an advantage of brass availability for the 9x23 over the 10mm if you reload, but I'll guarantee you I have seen more places carry factory 10mm ammo suitable for hunting than I have seen carry the 9x23 in factory loadings. That may or may not be a consideration for you. Hope this helps.
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2005, 08:32 AM
HiVelSword HiVelSword is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE
I don't know that there is an advantage of brass availability for the 9x23 over the 10mm if you reload, but I'll guarantee you I have seen more places carry factory 10mm ammo suitable for hunting than I have seen carry the 9x23 in factory loadings. That may or may not be a consideration for you. Hope this helps.
Thanks G50AE. You brought up a point that I forgot. Indeed, even with it being overshadowed by the .40 S&W, there are still a lot more available commercial loads for the 10mm than the 9x23. In the popularity dept. they are both near the bottom. Both undeservedly so. I hope someday for a resurgence of 10mm popularity as well as a surge of popularity for the 9x23. I adore the 1911 but it'd be nice to see the 10mm chambered in something else besides that, Glock and Tangfolio pistols.

And I still think they should have called the 9x23, .357 ACP.

Hey, it worked for SIG!
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:30 PM
ClarkEMyers ClarkEMyers is offline
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I suggest the 10mm for multi-tasking especially hunting.

Quote:
IIRC, the 9x23 is basically a .38 super that is 2 mm longer in the casing
Not exactly - they'll each come in right around .900 oal and each needs the full 1911 magazine space same as the .45 ACP.

Although the .38 Super and the 9X23 are similar the .38 Super - which is a rimmed straight case - has a tad more room than the Winchester brass 9X23 which has very thick walls on a tapered rimless case so the loading data does not interchange no way no how although of course there are useful indications going from one to the other.

There are lots of variations including 38TJ and Lapua also makes a rimless sort of Super case.

For my money the 9X23 is as good as it gets for CCW - that's what I carry, but I'm not sure the differences are immense - my backup (2 is 1; 1 is none) is a .45.

For any reasonable hunting application - as opposed to plinking ground squirrels - I'd go 10mm.

Although my first serious hunting handgun was a .357 magnum flat top Ruger Blackhawk oldstyle (all they had then) in a western style rig and I felt happier with it then than I have with anything since maybe

- just the same today I think the .41 S&W Magnum is a tad better for hunting and the 10mm is distinctly the best choice for hunting in a 1911 (Rowland's and Super's aside as oddball and specialized - I'd cheerfully hunt with a racegun in .460 Rowland but that's really stretching this thread). I tried to get a Dan Wesson Global Hunter and I'd suggest a 6" barrel 10mm is likely a great hunting gun - but not a great CCW. AFAIK Rick Jamison has often carried a Colt Delta Elite hunting as an ideal combination of carry and power.

Last edited by ClarkEMyers; 12-13-2005 at 03:34 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2005, 08:24 PM
ctrmass ctrmass is offline
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If you do more hunting, I'd go with the 10mm.
I'd like to say though....I'm a BIG fan of the 9x23.
9x23 for the 2 legged critters , 10mm for deer, hogs, etc.
Eric
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  #8  
Old 12-13-2005, 08:26 PM
ctrmass ctrmass is offline
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If you do more hunting, I'd go with the 10mm.
I'd like to say though....I'm a BIG fan of the 9x23.
9x23 for the 2 legged critters , 10mm for deer, hogs, etc.
Eric
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2005, 08:27 PM
ctrmass ctrmass is offline
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If you do more hunting, I'd go with the 10mm.
I'd like to say though....I'm a BIG fan of the 9x23.
9x23 for the 2 legged critters , 10mm for deer, hogs, etc.
Eric
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2005, 11:03 PM
Cyric13 Cyric13 is offline
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Thanks guys. A lot along the same lines I was thinking. I would like something I could hunt deer with and also be good for carry. Ammo avaliblity is a concern since I don't reload yet What I'm leaning toward is a 1911 10mm build with STI/SVI parts. Right now I CCW a government so no cocerns with a 5". Hopefully by summer of next year I'll get started. Thanks again and keep the replies and thoughts coming.

later -C
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2005, 11:54 PM
Gunmetal Gunmetal is offline
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Not wanting to stir up a hornets nest....

The .357 Mag with 125gr of any kind is deemed by the knowing as inadequate for hunting any game over 60 lbs or so. That's why most users of the 357, use 158 to 187 grainers. And then it's still marginal. Used at close range, and by the experienced.

And heavy loaded 9x23 is not the same. Sorry.

Double Tap Ammo, makes a mean 10 mike mike load, that should op fine for small deer at under 50 yds. A 200gr XTP @ a real 1250. Out of a Glock 20. That's a everyday .41 Mag load.

I don't want to hurt you nine guy's feelings, but as a hunting load - it sucks.

Kevin
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  #12  
Old 12-14-2005, 07:30 AM
Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyric13
Thanks guys. A lot along the same lines I was thinking. I would like something I could hunt deer with and also be good for carry. Ammo avaliblity is a concern since I don't reload yet What I'm leaning toward is a 1911 10mm build with STI/SVI parts. Right now I CCW a government so no cocerns with a 5". Hopefully by summer of next year I'll get started. Thanks again and keep the replies and thoughts coming.

later -C
The 5" has not been a problem for CCW for me either, as I often change out the three full-size in my signature and am completely comfortable with the holsters I have for them (Sparks VMII and HBE COM3). I generally don't carry the 10mm due to over-penetration considerations, but may do so when I get a load worked up and expansion/penetration tested with the lighter bullets to ensure it won't over-penetrate. Having said that, I'm sure there are sufficient factory loadings out there in the 135 - 155gr offerings that would expand rapidly and not over-penetrate - I just haven't tested any of them yet, so for now I carry my .45's for CCW and the 10mm for hunting deer.

Hope we have all given good observations to assist you with your decision.

Shoot well.
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  #13  
Old 12-14-2005, 07:49 AM
Cyric13 Cyric13 is offline
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Hey Grandpas50AE about the over penetration issues here is some useful stats:

copied from pistolsmith.com forums user gunfan:

McNett's standardized 10% Vyse Brand ballistic gelatin tests (with 4 layers of denim and 2 layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin) actually suggests that full power 10mm penetration is actually less when compared to equivalent full power DT (lightweight for caliber, fast hollowpoint) loads in the other popular calibers. And yes, I know "jello" tests are not human flesh, but at least we have a consistent basis to start debating from.

Examples are (all Double Tap factory hollowpoint ammo from your typical G20.):

10mm 135 gr.@ 1600 fps. w. 767 ft/lbs. energy for 11.0" penetration.
40 S&W 165 gr. @ 1200 fps. w. 525 ft/lbs energy for 14.0"penetration.
357 Mag.125 gr.@1600fps. w. 710 ft/lbs energy for 12.75" penetration.
357 Sig 125 gr.@ 1450 fps. w. 581 ft/lbs. energy for 14.5" penetration.
45 ACP 185 gr. @ 1225 fps. w.614 ft/lbs. energy for 12.75" penetration.

Source: Glock Talk-Official gelatin results for all of the Double Tap loads.
And we have not even begun to explore the handloading possibilities for the 10mm.

Something to think about here's the link to the post

http://pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php...a5d5fc6d790707

later -C
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