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  #1  
Old 11-21-2005, 10:01 PM
98_1LE 98_1LE is offline
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Data on # of shots fired in self defense?




I have seen a lot of data on shootings over the years, but do not recall seeing the number of shots fired by a civilian in a justified self defense shooting. Has this data been gathered, and if so, is there a report somewhere?
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  #2  
Old 11-22-2005, 12:31 AM
Greyson Greyson is offline
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I have no hard evidence and just heard this from a gun store owner
regarding police shootings. He stated that the AVERAGE police shooting
is 2 rounds.

Not what you asked but thought it was interesting enough to remember.

If someone more knowledgeable then me comes with with a different number
then just relegate this to "my grandpa told me in a bar" wild ass guess.

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Greyson
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  #3  
Old 11-22-2005, 02:02 AM
Str8_Shot Str8_Shot is offline
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98_1LE

I have seen/heard a couple of things concerning the number of rounds fired. The first is something that was claimed to be reported by the FBI, which agrees with the number Greyson gave you. According to this report the average incident was:

Avg distance: 7 ft
Shooters involved: 2
Avg Shots fired: 2
Avg Deaths: 1

While the above may be considered interesting, it may be more hear say than fact.

In addition to the above, I have seen a write up by Massad Ayoob in one of the magazines where he brought up a revision to the NYPD Officer Involved Shooting Statistics. The revision came about after a review of all NYPD data, going back almost 100 yrs. The person conducting the review looked at the data differently than ever before. The big changes were, the elimination of Officer suicides and accidents, and the separation of shootings using revolvers from those using semi-autos. The results for average rounds fired changed as follows:

Average rounds fired from:
Revolvers: 5
Semi-Autos: 9
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  #4  
Old 11-22-2005, 04:23 AM
Mus Mus is offline
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The 7 2 2 1 numbers dont make sense to me. The distance is believable, the number of people involved seems like it should be higher if its including law enforcement shootings, the rounds fired should be alot higher, and it seems like the number of deaths would be lower.

Just my opinion. Can anyone source those numbers as actual fact? They just dont sound like what I would expect.
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  #5  
Old 11-22-2005, 06:18 AM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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Certainly the 50% mortality rate per shot fired is in error. More than half the people shot with a handgun survive.
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  #6  
Old 11-22-2005, 08:34 AM
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Ricky T Ricky T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Burke
Certainly the 50% mortality rate per shot fired is in error. More than half the people shot with a handgun survive.
If I'm not mistaken, Tom Givens stated a statistic that 80% of handgun victims survived.

On the average, the number of shots in a SHOOTING is 2 - 3. The average number of shots in a GUNFIGHT is usually whatever is in the magazine or gun. Distance? anywhere from bad breath distance to 10 yds.

Disclaimer: I don't hang out or work in gunstores.
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  #7  
Old 11-22-2005, 04:53 PM
master gunner master gunner is offline
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"If I'm not mistaken, Tom Givens stated a statistic that 80% of handgun victims survived."

Bad shot placement?
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  #8  
Old 11-22-2005, 06:19 PM
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Handguns are puny popguns.
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  #9  
Old 11-22-2005, 07:04 PM
Mus Mus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Burke
Handguns are puny popguns.
Yeah that and most of our population is concentrated in areas where they will receive top notch medical care within a few minutes of being shot.
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  #10  
Old 11-22-2005, 07:52 PM
Wildcard580 Wildcard580 is offline
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I don't have any info to back this up but I remember when I took my CCW course a year or so ago the instructor told us that the average shooting was 3 seconds and 2 rounds. Again, I don't have any definite info. to back this up, just what I was told.
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  #11  
Old 11-22-2005, 08:40 PM
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There are SHOOTINGS, and there are GUNFIGHTS. Stats for both are different.
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  #12  
Old 11-22-2005, 09:41 PM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
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Quote:
Bad shot placement?
Well you could say that, but considering how large the human body is, how well the body protects vital things and then look at how small the average pistol caliber bullet is and the truly 'sensitive' parts of the body are. Now mix that with the medical treatment available and it's not that hard to see the results.

Another interesting stat I read once said something to the effect that if a person is shot with a handgun caliber and doesn't bleed out within a minute their chances of surviving get really close to 100%.

Of course that doesn't talk about somebodies quality of life once they recover, they may survive but may have to eat through a straw, be confined to a wheel chair, etc, etc. Granted none of that helps when the BG is intending to do harm.

Andrew
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  #13  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:59 PM
Str8_Shot Str8_Shot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by master gunner
"If I'm not mistaken, Tom Givens stated a statistic that 80% of handgun victims survived."

Bad shot placement?
Since the mid to late 1970's this is probably true, given the advent of well trained and equipped paramedics, air ambulances, trauma centers, and good antibiotics. But prior to this, and prior to the 1960s, survival from a gunshot was anything but certain. Though the cause of death was probably infection rather than blood loss.
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  #14  
Old 11-23-2005, 06:54 AM
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The point about medical care is well made. If you are shot with a handgun and survive to the ER, your likelihood of surviving is quite high.
I think Ricky T's on to something about the difference in statistics between a shooting and a gunfight... but does anyone keep stats on gunfights?
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2005, 11:38 AM
196pc 196pc is offline
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The L.E. data that I've seen is pretty much the same mentioned here although I think think its gotta be higher (semi autos & such). I have never seen data on non-LEO shootings. Just going off the top of my head using the NRA's American Rifleman non-LEO shooting stories they have monthly, I would guess its gotta be two to four rounds max.
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2005, 07:01 PM
98_1LE 98_1LE is offline
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Good stuff. Thanks!
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2005, 04:53 AM
smince smince is offline
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Just remember that the 2-3 shots is an AVERAGE. Someone may have had to fire 1 time, someone 10 or more to make up the average.

I agree 100% that there is a difference between a "shooting" and a "gunfight".
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  #18  
Old 12-14-2005, 06:05 PM
Cruiser Cruiser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8_Shot
98_1LE

I have seen/heard a couple of things concerning the number of rounds fired. The first is something that was claimed to be reported by the FBI, which agrees with the number Greyson gave you. According to this report the average incident was:

Avg distance: 7 ft
Shooters involved: 2
Avg Shots fired: 2
Avg Deaths: 1

While the above may be considered interesting, it may be more hear say than fact.
Those stats come from the FBI's summary of law enforcement officers killed. It does not take into account gunfights in which officers were not killed, which is the vast majority. That's why the number of shots fired is so low and the average number of deaths is one- someone got killed in each of those incidents.

The trouble with statistics is that they are almost always incomplete in some way and can almost always be manipulated to support either side of the argument.
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  #19  
Old 12-14-2005, 07:27 PM
AHancock AHancock is offline
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Good points about handgun fatalities and ERs; many (maybe most) HG rounds on the street are FMJ or solids; even if not, velocities are in the sub-sonic range frequently, less than a thousand fps, so the high velocity "ballistic" type wounds are seldom seen. Usually hole in, hole out. If nothing important is hit, collateral damage is minimal and a good surgeon cleans the track, sews up, puts the pt on ab and he's out in a couple of days. Many BGs who show up in ERs have multiple scars from GSW until one gets them in the squash, liver or heart, or one of their "customers" puts a full magazine in them...

Doc H.
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  #20  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:56 PM
HP12C HP12C is offline
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I see all of this talk about 'shooting vs a gunfight'

What are calling a shooting - one idividual uses a firearm with deadly intent?

What are you calling a gunfight - two or more individuals using a firearm with deadly intent?
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  #21  
Old 12-15-2005, 06:35 PM
jsbcody jsbcody is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruiser
Those stats come from the FBI's summary of law enforcement officers killed. It does not take into account gunfights in which officers were not killed, which is the vast majority. That's why the number of shots fired is so low and the average number of deaths is one- someone got killed in each of those incidents.

The trouble with statistics is that they are almost always incomplete in some way and can almost always be manipulated to support either side of the argument.
I read where someone actually did a study of LEO involved shooting (where officers lived) and compared them to the FBI figuares which are all where officers died.

FBI figuares:
avg. distance: 7 feet
avg LEO hit percentage: 16%

All Officer Shootings figuares:
avg. distance opened up to 16 feet.
avg. LEO hit percentage was 67% and broke it further down to 1st and 2nd shot hits. If officer hit with the first round, the officer's chances of suriviving were 95%. If they missed with first shot: chances went down to 45%.

Those are the figuares I recall, if I can find the book, will post the title.
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  #22  
Old 12-15-2005, 07:05 PM
TXAGGIECHL TXAGGIECHL is offline
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That sounds about right, as the distance decreases, so do your chances of survival.
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2005, 07:24 PM
marksman28 marksman28 is offline
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98 1LE,

I think your question is a bit difficult to answer as it depends on shot placement. IMHO as many as you can until he's down. If you shot the person 15X and the police ask you why, tell him I ran out of magazine.
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2005, 07:33 PM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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I have never seen any stats on civilian shootings at all. Not sure if anyone ever kept any. They probably would not be valid anyway because there are a lot of self defense shootings were no one is hit and no one reports it...

LE shootings...back in the mid-80s the average "hit" rate was 29%...the average "kill" rate was 11%. Number of rounds expended 2.7. In the mid 90s when the last time I saw it and well after most major LE agencies went semi-auto the number of rounds expended by an LEO in a gunfight was over 9. the hit rate was I believe 19% and kill rate under 10%.

In 1983 Dallas PD, where I was working at the time, had 86+- shootings. 66 of the suspects were hit and of those 34 died. The press had a field day because we killed more people than any other city in the nation....however when it was looked into Dallas PD actually had a use of deadly force rate lower than any other city per capita...we just hit what we were aiming at and used "enough gun".

Bob

Last edited by SuperMan; 12-15-2005 at 07:35 PM.
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  #25  
Old 12-16-2005, 06:11 PM
smince smince is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan
...there are a lot of self defense shootings were no one is hit and no one reports it...
OK, shots are fired, but is it actually a "shooting" if no one is hit?
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