Front Sight 4 Day Defensive Handgun (Long)

[Bulldog Six]

A few weeks ago, I attended Front Sight's 4 Day DH course, using a certificate I purchased from another member of this board. My bottom line up front: My training experience at Front Sight was very positive, and I would return there for more training at some point in the future. Details below.

Stipulation/background: this was the first training course of its type I've attended, despite having carried a 1911 one way or another since my days as an Army sergeant in the Military Police Corps, later as an Infantry officer, and now as a licensed civilian in the state of Florida. I'm a long way from being a 1911 virgin, but a rookie when it comes to this type of training.

First comment, need. As a result of reading a lot of training material on this board (and some other forums), I was convinced that this kind of training was something I not only needed, but would probably also enjoy. I was right on both counts.

The phrase you'll hear at the introductory session in the classroom at Front Sight is, "You don't know what you don't know." This proved to be very true, and not just for those of us in the civilian category. In my class we had a California Highway Patrolman (who shot from his duty rig), a number of Deputy Sheriffs, and a detective from a major northwestern sheriff's office who had already been to Gunsite and several other similar schools. I was frankly surprised at the large number of fulltime LEOs there. We also had entire families, spouses, and fathers and sons (including a 19 year old on my range who was blazingly fast, rapidly disposing of most of us old guys in the man-on-man shootoff - there's a lot to be said for young eyes and young reflexes!).

Second comment, value. For what I paid for the certificate, it's hard to imagine a better value anywhere in the firearms training market. To save money, I cashed in Delta miles for the flights out and back, and Hertz coupons to pay for the rental car. My out of pocket expenses amounted to hotel room, food, drinks and ammo.

Environment: I'd heard all the horror stories about Front Sight (pushing a specific religion, cramming their marketing pitches down your throat, etc.). My experience involved none of that. During lunch the first two days, the same DVD that you can order free from Front Sight, which described the mission and philosophy of the resort, and touts its "First Family" memberships, was shown in the classroom where most of us ate (to escape the heat outside). I'd watched it before I got there, and knew that as a Florida resident, such a membership wasn't practical for me, but there were lot of First Family members there for training, and if I lived closer, I'd think seriously about it. Every staff person I encountered there was utterly professional, and genuinely concerned about each of us improving (that's why we came), being completely safe, and having a positive experience there. All three were true for me.

Logistics: Pahrump, NV is kind of in the middle of nowhere (about an hour SW of Las Vegas). The Best Western where I stayed offered a nice, clean room at a reasonable price, although I was without hot water on more than one occasion. The management adjusted my bill when I checked out. The resort is back toward Las Vegas, and off to the south a bit, about 20 minutes from Pahrump.

I had made arrangements to buy a case of WWB from a local WalMart SuperCenter in Las Vegas. It turns out that Pahrump now has its own Walmart SuperCenter, and when I went in there the night before class to buy a cooler, some sandwich supplies and Gatorade, I noticed 7 boxes of .45ACP WWB on the shelf in Sporting Goods. Ammo is available in the Front Sight pro shop as well.

Equipment: I took a couple of pair of old BDU pants from my active duty days (the cargo pockets in the legs were great for holding extra loaded magazines, in addition to the ones on my belt). I wore the long-sleeved, light cotton Columbia shirts that I wear for flats fishing here back home, a baseball cap (Maverick boats, naturally), and a pair of Bates tactical boots. The days are long, the sun was bright, and this clothing and liberal application of sunscreen kept me from leaving the course looking like a lobster (which more than one person did).

I used a 1.5" Wilderness 5-stitch belt and a Comp-Tac settable cant OWB holster, with an FBI cant adjusted into it, as well as Comp-Tac magazine and 6P light holders on the belt. Blade Techs are very popular, and available in the Pro Shop, but I needed a LH rig, and wanted it before I got there - the folks at Comp-Tac were great to deal with on the phone - highly recommended.

Hardware: I took my Les Baer 5" steel Custom Carry as my primary gun, with my Concept X as a backup (never needed it, despite some hiccups described below). I took a large assortment of Wilson, Baer and Tripp mags. The five Tripp Cobra Mags i had required some real force to seat, even with only seven rounds (the standard for 1911s at Front Sight), so I stuck to the Wilsons and Baers after the first morning.

From my visual survey, there were a LOT of Glocks there, with 1911s coming in second. On my range, we had Springers, a Colt Gunsite government model, and a hard chrome Les Baer with a mag well large enough to swallow a good sized cat. A smattering of S&W autos, SIGs, an H&K or two, and even one revolver on my range, just to make things interesting.

Training: I can't say enough about my admiration for the training environment that rangemaster Wes LaHuillier and his line coaches created for us. It was a total emphasis on safety always, increasingly demanding standards for accuracy, speed and realism (last two days are all presentations from concealment), and supportive coaching designed to make you better, not frustrated.

The classroom sessions, mostly led by Wes, but some by Operations Manager Brad Ackman, were all useful, especially the discussion of Problems One, Two and Three (scenarios, and their legal and moral implications).

By the time we were into the third day, Wes was using one phrase a lot - "OK, we're going to speed things up a bit now." By the time we took the Skills Test at the end of Day 4, I was amazed at how far each of us in the class had come. The test was a combination of 25 shots, plus timed reloads (tactical and emergency) and malfunction clearances. The reloads and malfunctions were all done with a timer, and no slack on the buzzer - you either finished on time, or you didn't.

I was struggling with my shooting on the morning of Day 4, largely due to some day job issues that had crept into my brain the night before, but Wes's talk to us before lunch that day about mental discipline, and my re-focusing on the basics (front sight!) for the rest of the day, enabled me to slip into the ranks of Distinguished Graduates for our class.

Mystery Malfunction Blues: By the third day, a couple of spots on my hands were either very raw or spotting open cuts (left thumb from stiff ambi safety, right thumb tip from a cut), so I had taped them up with the cloth first aid tape I brought (they also have these supplies on each range). I began to experience Type 3 malfunctions from time to time with my Custom Carry, and tried to figure out the possible reason for this on a gun that had been virtually flawless since the day I bought - it was driving me batty. I had faithfully stripped, cleaned and re-lubed it every night after class, and the extractor wasn't broken, so what was it?

As I prepared to re-holster that afternoon, I noticed a dirty yellowish streak on my slide, under the ejection port, about two inches long, and 1/4 inch wide. As I cleaned the pistol that night, I discovered that it was adhesive that had transferred from the edges of the first aid tape to the slide of the gun as my thumbs occasionaly brushed against it. I never would have thought that sticky thumbs and a sticky slide would create enough friction to prevent functioning with ball ammo, but that's exactly what happened. The next day, I patched up my hands with super glue at the recommendation of a classmate, and the problem went away. Two morals to the story - don't use first aid tape on anything that gets near the slide, and super glue is a great substitute for patching up sore spots and cuts.

Epilogue: I benefited so much from this initial training at Front Sight that I've already registered for Randy Cain's Tactical Handgun 101 class here in Florida in May, and plan to attend LFI-1 sometime this year. Next year, it'll be Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, or something else (return to Front Sight for Advanced Tactical Hangun, perhaps), but it will be SOMETHING. Now, I can't imagine going an entire year (or less) without some formal training to supplement my dry practice and range work at home.

If you're planning a trip to Front Sight, PM me and I'd be happy to give you some details on what to expect from the minute you arrive, although their web site is pretty comprehensive ("Front Sight from A to Z"). I was tremendously pleased with my experience there.

[sarhog]

Outstanding post!
Thanks for taking the time to write it.
After reading your post and perusing the Frontsight website, I think you may have cost me a big chunk of change in the future!
Now...where do I get one of those "certificates"?

[Bulldog Six]

Sarhog,

The certificates are generally available for purchase at fscerts.com, and often on eBay.

You can also do a Google search for other sources, just be sure to compare prices. The most basic certificate can only be used for a first-time visit. There are more expensive certificates that can be used for return visits.

I also recommend that you keep your eyes peeled on the For Sale sections of forums like this one - that's where I got my certificate.

After you spend some time on the Front Sight web site (which isn't the most intuitive thing in the world - from frontsight.com, click on the Front Sight Nevada link), PM me if you still have questions.

Six

[CitrusDude]

Thanks for the review. Very comprehensive. I have had both Randy's 101 (plus many other of his classes), and LFI 1. Take Randy's course to improve your shooting, and LFI 1 for the legal implications and having Mass as a potential expert witness if the worst comes to pass.

I am also in Florida, and live in Lakeland. Hopefully I will get to meet you at the Swamp when you take Randy's class, unless I have already met you at our IDPA matches.

[vallopez2000]

For certificates go to Ebay and search for "Front Sight Certificate". Usually you can find any of their certificates alot cheaper on Ebay than any where else.

[bdcc11]

Hey Bulldog Six. I was at Frontsight for that same weekend as you. I was in the bay 8. You know the ones that won the man on man. (JUST BY A SKIN)

You are right about everything we could learn there. I had a problem with the way they wanted me to hold my 1911 but I tried it for the 1st 2 days and the thumb safety was hitting my right thumb in a spot that ended up giving me some real nerve damage that has not gone away yet. I will be going to the doctor this week to see if anything can be done. I did bring my Glock 34 that I was able to shoot without hitting my thumb for the last 2 days.

Holding the gun and forcing myself to keep using the Weaver stance gave me the same recoil control with both guns. The 1911 sight would just bounce up and down just like the Glock. I was very pleased at how well it worked.

I live in CA and would consider a 1st family membership but my wife would never let me spend that kind of money. I would love to go back to FS with my revolver. I also need some training with my shotgun.

[Bulldog Six]

bdc11: Good to know you were there, too. It was great weather, wasn't it? And yes, Range 8 gets man-to-man bragging rights....... That was a great event - I wish we could have done it at the end of every day.

Sorry to hear about your thumb damage. I don't know how they wanted you to hold your 1911, but they rotated my support hand rearward so that the heels of my hands were more closely aligned, rather than the support hand heel being mostly in front of the firing hand heel. Like a change in an ingrained golf grip, it felt really alien at first, but I got used to it over time.

My sense was that you could pick up one of the consignment First Family memberships at a bargain price right now from people who were ready to unload, instead of the issue price, but the geography just doesn't work for me.

Shooting the course with a revolver would be interesting, wouldn't it?

Cheers!

Six

[Raspy]

<><> Try

www.cheap-certificates.com

for some of the best prices I've
seen...

===========================

<><> Raspy <><>

[Raspy]

<><> Sorry folks,,, I just went to
the site I referred to above and
the certs are much higher in price
than they were when I first visited
that site...

They must change the price at
different times...

Sorry about that...

===========================

<><> Raspy <><>

[sarhog]

Originally Posted by Raspy

<><> Sorry folks,,, I just went to
the site I referred to above and
the certs are much higher in price
than they were when I first visited
that site...

I'm not sure I understand.
I looked at the 4 Day defensive handgun course at the Frontsight website, and it shows $1200.

Then I went to the Cheap certificates website that you linked, and it shows the 4 day defensive handgun course at $600.....and now you are apologizing, saying they were cheaper before???

How much cheaper??

I tell ya what, if I can get that 4 day class for less than $600, I think I'll jump all over it.

Thanks for the link!

[Ben Huntin]

I gave $85.00 shipped for my 4 day certificate from them before the price hike. They sent me an e-mail prior to the price increase. I should have bought a couple extras as gifts for friends and family. I'm planing on attending practical rifle in the near future.

[mbsigman1]

Mr Six gave a very comprehensive - and very accurate - report of the Front Sight experience. I'd like to expand on some of what he said if I may.

I attended that Four Day Defensive Handgun course twice, once with my G21 and once with my Kimber ProCDP. Mr Six discussed their recommended grip technique. They do indeed stress their own grip technique, which has the firing thumb pad resting on support thumbnail. The 1911 grip that they recommend simply did not work FOR ME as I could not adapt to the firing thumb sliding off the support thumbnail. But the instructors were extremely helpful and professional with regard to this issue; they asked me to try their grip technique, and if it didn't work for me then I was told to return to what was comfortable for me. No muss nor fuss and I really appreciated their tips for improving the original grip that I was using.

When I am going to shoot a lot I always wrap my firing hand thumb in medicinal foam tape. This stuff stays put and really prevents blisters without being so thick that it messes up your grip. I also wear a golf glove with the fingers cut off at the first (inner) joint for additional protection. 800 rounds is a lot of shooting! Just my suggestion.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the religion thing surfaces from time to time. I've been there numerous times (going back as soon as I can) and the only religion that I've ever heard mentioned was SAFETY. Boy howdy that's literally hammered into you. And you will pass those lessons on without even realizing it. I was shooting with a friend last week and drilled "chamber check - mag check" into his head until he was muttering it under his breath on the drive home! The lunchtime presentations were and remain completely optional, and even then all they do is talk about their plans for the resort and the membership options. Like many who post here, becoming a member simply isn't an option due to location. Now, if they were to open a branch here in Texas, I'd mortgage our kid to join!

LOOONNNNNGGGG days with very little down time. You're either shooting, dry firing, or reloading under their awning that they call cover. This is a good thing - you don't want to waste time out there.

One time I went out there I stayed in LAS and it takes about an hour to drive back and forth each way. By day four that gets old. Throw in the night shoot and weapon cleaning and you're looking at not a whole lotta sleep. The alternative is beautiful downtown Pahrump (such as it is) and I've yet to find a semi-decent restaurant anywhere near there. But it is closer and easier to get in and out of.

Bottom line is that I agree with Mr Six: this is outstanding training for your hard earned money. Instructors are extremely professional and you'll be amazed at how much you learn in a short period of time.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[decoria]

Originally Posted by Bulldog Six

a hard chrome Les Baer with a mag well large enough to swallow a good sized cat

Come on Buck, my Baer didn't have that big of funnel.

[Bulldog Six]

OK, maybe the magwell would have swallowed a MEDIUM-sized cat, not a large one......

Interesting story in the Vegas papers from the Sunday after the course about the police showing up at a gas station along Highway 160 outside of town, responding to a call about three yahoos who had apparently fled from dubious circumstances, and were re-packing their suitcases on the sidewalk before disappearing, just before the police arrived.

You two boys know anything about that?

What a sight - like the Beverly Hillbillies with range bags! LOL

Great meeting you guys and shooting with you - it was really a super experience, all the way around.

Best regards,

Buck

[Citabria]

I have some four day certificates I will sell at a reasonable price. Please email me at silverdesert@charter.net. Thanks Dave

[Citabria]

For anyone interested I have one certificate left. Please emaol me at silverdesert@charter.net.

Thank you,
Dave

[WetWork999]

Bulldog, glad you had a good time. Give me a call sometime...

~A

[Chuck S]

Don't ignore these courses for their pure recreational value!

I freely admit it's unlikely you'll ever need any more skills than you'll obtain in the first three days of Gunsite 250. That is, if you practice these skills. They're perishable to a large extent.

Clearing houses in the dark in teams is a skill rarely used by anyone. I'm gonna use grenades, just like the last time!

Taking a so-called "basic" course (of 3 days or more) once a year will help keep you sharp. Consider it supervised practice.

Do it the instructor's way, even if it's "wrong." My 1911s no longer have slide releases, but they retain slide stops!

-- Chuck

[TXAGGIECHL]

Originally Posted by Chuck S

Do it the instructor's way, even if it's "wrong." My 1911s no longer have slide releases, but they retain slide stops!

-- Chuck

Chuck, is it my understanding that Frontsite and/or Gunsite teach releasing the slide (from slide lock) using the quick pull back and release (also called "sling-shot") method? (as opposed to hitting the slide release?)

Looking back, I guess "sling-shot" is a bad way to describe how I personally do it. I grab the slide with my weak hand (palm against the top of the slide & rear sight) and pull back & release using my whole hand. This method requires no fine motor skills; unlike stabbing at the slide release with your thumb/finger, nor the dexterity of pinching the sides of the slide with your thumb & index finger.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, just trying to get an idea of how the schools differ.

[Smokeless]

Bulldog, Nice post/report. Very good read. I have to agree with your oponion on decoria's HC LB with the oversized cat hiding magwell. I had the opportunity to handle it last Wed. nite. Good job by V. Tripp. Nice peice. Take Care. Stay Safe. Dave