When was "Condition 1" for 1911 invented??

[Earlsbud]

I'll ad this article by Roy Huntington and Bill Laughridge to a great discussion.

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/ex...arest-of-rare/

[Dave Waits]

Earlsbud, thank you for that. Interesting to see a pictorial of the genesis of the 1911 and the logical progression of mods.

[Homesick]

Originally Posted by Rock185

No expert here, but I believe I first became aware of condition 1 carry from something I read by Col. Cooper sometime in the 1960s. I believe that even much later, many shooters considered condition 1 some kind of irresponsible "cowboy" thing and were afraid of it. I do recall a gun shop owner in the early '70s, demonstrating how to whip out and cock a Browning Hi Power, demonstrating the then-new spur hammer, as if it were an old Colt Peacemaker single action...

In my limited experience, that is the attitude of people who're unfamiliar with 1911s.

I stuck with revolvers for years when I really wanted 'America's Gun'. But enough repetitions of the these fears kept me away. Once I got to shoot a couple of them and explore their workings the fear seemed silly to me.

I bought my SA Champion, sold my Smith 65, and am condition 1 24/7/365.25.

joe

[Homesick]

Originally Posted by BILLCALLEY

Sgt45, I don't know about C1 carry starting in 1911. Who would have done that, considering the U.S. Army adopted it in 1911, with the Navy and Marines following suit by the next year or two. All 1911 production would have had to go for military use for quite some time. The military, most unarguably, would NEVER allow Condition 1 carry -- not now, not then, not ever. (Current or recent Special Forces units might allow C1 nowadays, but I simply have no idea).


.

I don't know the regs, but I know troops. I guarantee at least some front line troops carried C1.

joe

[Earlsbud]

Originally Posted by Dave Waits

Earlsbud, thank you for that. Interesting to see a pictorial of the genesis of the 1911 and the logical progression of mods.

You're welcome Dave. It makes it easier for me to imagine the different influences, needs, demands, and compromises that were part of that process.

[lidserra]

I have been following the posts and find it interesting all of the different opinions.


The short answer to the original question, the original owners of the M1911 (US Army) knew of Condition 1, they were not to thrilled by it, but did it for a specific reason.

Here are some excerpts from the 1914 revision of the DESCRIPTION OF THE AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CALIBER .45 MODEL OF 1911

METHOD OF OPERATION.

A loaded magazine is placed in the handle and the slide (3) drawn fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the chamber (if the slide is open, push down the slide stop (8) to let the slide (3) go forward). The hammer (23) is thus cocked and the pistol is ready for firing.

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots, draw back the slide (3), insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel (2), allow the slide (3) to close, then lock the slide (3) and the cocked hammer (23) by pressing the safety lock (36) upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide (3) and hammer (23) being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (36) (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the
pistol to the firing position.

The grip safety (35) is provided with an extending horn, which not only serves as a guard to prevent the hand of the shooter from slipping upward and being struck or injured by the hammer (23), but also aids in accurate shooting by keeping the hand in the same position for each shot ; and, furthermore, permits the lowering of the
cocked hammer (23) with one hand by automatically pressing in the grip safety (35) when the hammer (23) is drawn slightly beyond the cocked position. In order to release the hammer (23), the grip safety (35) must be pressed in before the trigger (34) is pulled.

SAFETY DEVICES.

It is impossible for the firing pin (20) to discharge or even touch the primer, except on receiving the full blow of the hammer (23).

The pistol is provided with two automatic safety devices:

(1) The (automatic) disconnector (33) which positively prevents the release of the hammer (23) unless the slide (3) and barrel (2) are in the forward position and safely interlocked; this device also controls the firing and prevents more than one shot from following each pull of the trigger (34).

(2) The (automatic) grip safety (35) at all times locks the trigger (34) unless the handle is firmly grasped and the grip safety (35) pressed in.

The pistol is in addition provided with a safety lock (36) by which the closed slide (3) and the cocked hammer (23) can be at will positively locked in position.

IMPORTANT POINTS.
1. Never place the trigger finger within the trigger guard until it is intended to fire and the pistol is pointed toward the target.

2. Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency. If the pistol is so carried in the holster, cocked and safety lock on, the butt of the pistol should be rotated away from the body when withdrawing the pistol from the holster, in order to avoid displacing the safety lock.

Not very much discussion about the various conditions. It was loaded, chambered and safety on. If not ready for immediate fire, use the grip safety and lower the hammer.

Do not put it in a holster if it is C&L unless you really need to, which brings up both the grip safety and the slide safety.

The grip safety was introduced for the Calvary to protect the horse. Yes the horse, not the soldier. Soldier's were cheaper to replace than their horses. The grip safety was developed so a soldier could drop his grip on the pistol, have it hang on the lanyard and not discharge into the horse while the soldier used both hands on the reins.

The slide safety was there so the soldier could lock the slide and holster the weapon quickly. The slide safety's job was to ensure the slide wouldn't be pushed out of battery when the pistol was hurriedly jammed into the holster. They were concerned that in battlefield conditions, it might not return into battery when pulled out of the holster.

It also locked the hammer, so it could not be accidentally released on withdrawal from the holster.

Lastly, about firing pins. The following site http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/i..._discharge.htm has a great discussion on the physics of what it takes for the firing pin to strike and initiate a primer without a hammer blow.

Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

[SG688]

Originally Posted by CavCop

In the 1950 to 1980 Fairbairn, Applegate, and Sykes, were the authority on shooting. .....
It is not till around 1976 that Jeff Cooper started to teach about firearms, ...
.

Just to quibble, Cooper opened Gunsite in about 1976 but had been teaching for years. He first published in 1958.

Rosco: You probably know that in the late 1960's Bianchi made a holster named after and credited to Bruce Nelson -- single belt loop, forward rake with thumb break. I had one.

I doubt Askins had anything to do with designing the Avenger beyond saying to John Bianchi, "Why don't you make a version of that Nelson holster with a forward rake?"

[VetPsychWars]

I recently received Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers. In the book, copyright 1935, he says that the Army currently carries the service pistol cocked and locked. Interestingly, he believes that a cartridge chambered with the hammer down is the safest way to carry.

Tom

[Jsl_pt]

Originally Posted by Earlsbud

I'll ad this article by Roy Huntington and Bill Laughridge to a great discussion.

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/ex...arest-of-rare/

Very interesting article! Thanks for the link.

[HarryO45]

I am pretty sure that Al Gore invented Condition 1. No one ever carried the 1911 it in Condition 1 till then. As far as military manuals go...noone reads them.

[roostershooter7]

Uh ... must not be many Devil Dogs in here. If there were ... you would have heard it before me. Don't know specifically for the 1911, but I'd be willing to bet it was a Leatherneck who came up with it.



Condition 1 : Magazine inserted, round in chamber, slide forward, and safety on.

Condition 2 : Not applicable to the M9 service pistol.

Condition 3 : Magazine inserted, chamber empty, slide forward, and safety on.

Condition 4 : Magazine removed, chamber empty, slide forward, and safety on.


Here's the official manual for the M9. I believe its in section 2-6

http://technoace.net/PistolMarksmanship.pdf

[roostershooter7]

Originally Posted by HarryO45

I am pretty sure that Al Gore invented Condition 1. No one ever carried the 1911 it in Condition 1 till then. As far as military manuals go...noone reads them.

You must have been a grunt or an infantryman. What branch?

[Len S]

My partner old paramedic partner was a Cav Scout in the first Gulf war. He hates the 1911 but loves Glocks. Hates condition 1. I asked why a Glock is good to carry that way or a rifle is ok to carry cocked and locked? My cousin and I where pheasant hunting and he was saying how unsafe cond.1 is and I casually asked why it was ok to carry a shot gun in hand cocked and locked over broken ground in chest high weeds and a handgun in a holster is unsafe in the same condition. The confusion on their faces is priceless. Why oh why is it ok to carry a long gun in cond.1 and not a handgun?


Len S

[Cannibul]

Originally Posted by Len S

My partner old paramedic partner was a Cav Scout in the first Gulf war. He hates the 1911 but loves Glocks. Hates condition 1. I asked why a Glock is good to carry that way or a rifle is ok to carry cocked and locked? My cousin and I where pheasant hunting and he was saying how unsafe cond.1 is and I casually asked why it was ok to carry a shot gun in hand cocked and locked over broken ground in chest high weeds and a handgun in a holster is unsafe in the same condition. The confusion on their faces is priceless. Why oh why is it ok to carry a long gun in cond.1 and not a handgun?


Len S

If you can't see that cocked hammer it makes all the difference in the world.

I've had the same discussion MANY times.

[alnitak]

Don't forget about Condition 5 --

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml

[BILLCALLEY]

Originally Posted by alnitak

Don't forget about Condition 5 --

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml

Interesting gimmick (discussion started in this thread on this C&S add-on starting with post #49). Even though I know it has no real utility, I love gizmos, and if I had $180 to blow, I'd probably give this SFS device a whirl...

[jtaylor996]

Originally Posted by iShoot

It's actually how the 1911 was designed.

I'm not even sure how you safely get into that condition. You rack the slide to load the round and it's already cocked. There's no decocker, so manually de-cocking the thing seems very dangerous to me...

[HarryO45]

Originally Posted by alnitak

don't forget about condition 5 --

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml

why?

[MidwestRookie]

I know this has pretty much run it's course, but wasn't condition 1 invented the instant they added the thumb safety?

just because no one (or hardly anyone) used it doesn't mean it didn't exist, right?

seems the thread should've been titled when did C1 become popular..