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Church Security

4K views 57 replies 30 participants last post by  cobaltboatfan 
#1 ·
Not sure if this is the right place for this discussion; if not, please redirect me.

Church security has become an issue over the last years. I am curious how most of the churches you attend handle this. Off duty LEO's or members with CCW's?

What type of plans do you use? We attend a small church with a high percentage of CCW's and people are encouraged to carry. This bothers me from the standpoint that there is no plan.

What say ye?
 
#7 ·
I carry in church, when I go (which isn't often).

I think it'd be a good idea to practice church attack response drills.
 
#8 ·
In Michigan it is against the law to carry in church. However provisions are made for armor bearers. I go to a very large church and it has an armed team of about 30 people. The team is comprised of male and female and prior/current military/police. Shooting practice is done once a week and everyone shoots 200 rounds (paid for by the church) at the range. Scenarios are set up and everyone is required to run the drill and score a certain percentage. During the cold months the shooting drills are taken inside the church and dry fire/room clearing practice begins. Everyone is assigned a certain area of the church and lockdown, active shooter, and emergency plans are all in place and rehearsed.
In Michigan since concealed carry is against the law people can technically open carry (per the law) however they will be asked to leave the church or leave the gun in the car. Everyone knows that there are tons of other guns in the church with people that either disregard the law or LEO but it's not much of a concern considering no one that I know thinks that the state can make a law that restricts the second amendment while practicing your first....
 
#10 ·
Well that sucks.

In an active shooter investigation someone that discharged a firearm is going to be charged if they can ID you. Count on it. I would strongly suggest that you petition the church adm board to pay for any legal fees that might be incurred if a member of your church needed to defend themselves.

Or just buy some insurance if you have a permit to carry. I did.
 
#12 ·
I belong to a Mega church, and serve as security for the Nursery every week. Yes, I am armed, Texas law allows carry in church, it is the church that determines whether gun free or not. Most of our sentinels carry, as do some of the pastoral staff. Concealed means just that.
 
#13 ·
kenemoore, your comment made me think of when deer drives to standers were the preferred way to hunt by many. Seems every year someone in the group would get excited and start shooting when they knew danged well they were surrounded by others, I know several guys up here that have been shot on drives. I can picture a bad guy opening fire in a very crowded room and everyone firing back, scary. But I'd still prefer having mine with me.
 
#14 ·
That is a real concern that I have voiced at various times. I support being armed in church, but those who are must exercise a lot of mature judgment.
A few years ago I had a friend who conducted CCW classes, and I assisted often. Few of the people who finished the course could shoot accurately enough to shoot in a crowd unless the BG was only a few feet away.

If a shooting occurred imagine the panic with everyone trying to get out. No one is good enough to shoot in that situation except at very close range.

Jerry
 
#15 ·
This is a huge issue/question, and different churches, pastors, members etc., are going in many directions ... often totally different.

The churches I attend (I have two homes) have not given much thought to this and the majority sentiment I detect appears to be the thinking that "a person need not and should not be armed in a house of God". And obviously, that is not a security plan formulated for practical life in this world, although I understand those who feel that it's a proper religious-based plan.
 
#16 ·
I personally don't go to church, but I think the answer is the same for any kind of gathering of people, whether it's a motorcycle club, sewing circle, church, or other hobby.

If your meetings are legally a 'gun free zone', then you should consider having a plan.

If your meetings are not a 'gun free zone', then you probably don't have to worry, because someone is not likely to attack when the probability of meeting armed resistance is high.
 
#20 ·
It comes down to prayer. Ask the Lord what he wants the Church to do. If it is His will, the Church will follow.

If the Church sees the need through prayer, they should set up a security detail to stand watch during the time of need. If that detail is carrying firearms, they should be well trained in marksmanship, the law and insured. They must be legally qualified to carry a pistol! The detail should have a plan of action just in case something would happen. They should train in the area of operation in conjunction with that plan of action. Ie... active shooter scenarios in various places in the building or grounds/property.

Even though it is our 2A right, in an active shooter situation, that chaotic scene could be greatly increased if every one pulled out their pistols. I think only designated personnel should be the ones to take down the threat/s. We call that the Fog of War.

At the very least, all Churches should do a threat assessment/analysis to the current security situation. Do you get harassing calls or threats. Are your members being threatened. Is the Church a target of hate crime and so on.

I am not in Law Enforcement! I am a retired US Air Force member with training and experience in weapons and tactics also with Force Protection/Anti Terrorism training.

Remember Psalm 91, Philippians 4:13 and Luke 22:36-38
 
#44 ·
Even though it is our 2A right, in an active shooter situation, that chaotic scene could be greatly increased if every one pulled out their pistols. I think only designated personnel should be the ones to take down the threat/s. We call that the Fog of War.
How does a church differ from a theater, a mall, a park, a school, a workplace... or any other place that people both congregate and CC? Should CC be banned everywhere nationwide, and only "designated" (ie, sworn, commissioned LE) personnel be permitted to engage an active shooter threat?

An active shooter event is a chaotic, rapidly evolving situation. One has to hope that those who do CC anywhere, not just in church, will both use good judgment and have the requisite skill to engage successfully. The only other option is a complete, absolute prohibition on CC everywhere....

A church, or any other organization, should evaluate what their risks are and how best to mitigate them. Does a mid-size, apolitical church have the same risk profile as a large, highly visible mega church, or one that is heavily involved in divisive political issues? The biggest problem with a formal, organized security plan is that, if it is sanctioned by the church, the church becomes responsible for the actions of those participating. If they simply allow CC on their premises, they have very little exposure. Its similar to the issue of teachers carrying at a public school- if the administration sanctions it, you have armed government employees at their place of duty, and the government entity is liable for their actions...
 
#23 · (Edited)
Moto, I completely agree that it is wise to use math/statistics in risk assessment. But it is also reasonable to ask if the past degree of risk might be changing along with world trends.

Your point is pertinent and reasonable; but so also are other people's concern that risk levels just might be increasing. Preparedness isn't a bad thing. People attending churches in other parts of the world, e.g., Nigeria, are now being slaughtered with weekly frequency. It wasn't so just a few years ago, but there just might be more violent extremists in the world today.

A lot of people are also focused on being safe/healthy with other life choices. Not everyone is overweight, smokes cigarettes, and/or drives recklessly, etc. I surely do not!!

Again you bring up good points ... I'm just suggesting that other perpectives also have relevance here.
 
#27 ·
Moto, I completely agree that it is wise to use math/statistics in risk assessment. But it is also reasonable to ask if the past degree of risk might be changing along with world trends.

Your point is pertinent and reasonable; but so also are other people's concern that risk levels just might be increasing. Preparedness isn't a bad thing. People attending churches in other parts of the world, e.g., Nigeria, are now being slaughtered with weekly frequency. It wasn't so just a few years ago, but there just might be more violent extremists in the world today.
Some excellent points here. I didn't state it, but I was assuming we were talking about a church in america. Even then, depending on what sort of church it is and what their activities are, and what the gun laws of the state are, the risk profile could be very very very different.

I personally would not give it a second thought if I were going to any mainstream church in Idaho. Absent any other indicators (like threats or obvious conflict/tension with someone or some group), it's not really a target that makes sense.

OTOH, if the church has taken an outspoken stance on a high-profile issue (gay marriage, abortion, or anything else that winds people up), then there may be a greater chance of an angry crazy person doing something crazy. Still wouldn't be a very good target when people were there because so many idahoans are armed on a regular basis tho, and we can carry in churches, bars, hockey games and other similar places of worship.
 
#33 ·
I carry in church. I may be the only one that does. There would be a big stink if some people found out about me. I would be violating their sacred space. I have discussed church defense with the minister and have prepared a plan to deal with intruder and shooter situations in the best way we can. LEOs vetted the plan.
 
#35 ·
I would not go on a LEO's legal advice even if he/she was teaching a class. I would look it up in the Law myself. If you get in trouble, that LEO wont be standing beside you while you are facing the Judge.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Enforcement of these types of laws probably varies widely, and is likely affected by prevailing views in the immediate region. Anti-gun areas, such as much of the North East, are all too eager to "make an example" of anyone who violates the smallest technicality. Pro gun areas are likely to have little interest in enforcing some technicality against an otherwise law abiding and peaceful citizen.

All in all of course, it's generally safest to know the actual law, not just what someone (even LEO) says, and follow it.
 
#39 ·
tomintexas,

There are several very good web sites set up for church security related issues. I have been able to help start security teams in two different churches. While we had many people in the congregations that were happy to see them started, we had some who could never see the need. In my opinion, it comes down to whether people are sheep or sheepdogs.
 
#40 ·
Seem's I remember reading that in the late 17th and early 18th century, you could be fined in some communities for NOT bringing your firearms to church. A RESPONSIBLE man was expected to be responsible for the safety of his brethren. Now we have lawyers and politicians to do that for us. I feel so much safer now that my rights can be infringed upon.
 
#42 ·
Beyond the legal question there is also concerns over civil lawsuits. Expect people to panic and run around in your line of fire. Every round you fire has a lawyer attached to it and if it harms anyone expect to be sued. Heck expect to be sued for emotional distressed even if you saved someone's life.
 
#45 ·
My church in Austin, Texas like almost all of them here zero armed security. I have discussed this with church members and the responses are close to insane here in Austin. They DO NOT WANT ARMED SECURITY!

We have had a mugging and a car break-in in the church parking lot.

As a result, I always concealed carry.

I can't fix naive and stupid people!
 
#48 ·
I do church security in Texas under GateKeepers Security. Level four personnel protection officers (body guard) as do five others in our church. Texas has some law that really frowns on a CHL holder being called "security". The only way a church can legally have armed security is to go through a licensed security company thru the Texas Dept. of Public Safety, with commissioned level 3 or level 4. Sure they can have a uniformed police officer at the site, but not have a dozen CHL holders doing security. Is it the best way? Probably not, but the law is very unforgiving if an unlicensed/un-commissioned person calls themselves security. To me, it is sad that we have come to this point. Look up GateKeepers in Plano Texas, their website does a good job of explaining the laws here in Texas
 
#49 ·
While TX does have some odd laws, most States do regulate and license security officers. When an organization has a formalized or structured 'security' program and staff (particularly if they are armed) that is untrained and unlicensed, it opens itself up to both criminal and civil liability. A bunch of CCWers who simply happen to be present at an event is a different matter. If they're not sanctioned by the organization, the church isn't liable for their actions.

This is where the risk analysis becomes important. If a church decides that the risk warrants a formal security program, the need to ensure that it's executed in accordance with applicable law.
 
#51 ·
My church security plan is 100%. I never set foot in one.

It's probably one of the the few target rich environments that it is not inconvenient at all to avoid. I'm quite thankful for that. Movie theaters will probably be on the list in the next few years since with each passing year movies become about as dull as sermons.

I don't go to malls much either. These aren't security based decisions, it's just my good fortune that my life style doesn't include them.
I would say having a plan for your church is a good idea but probably the simpler the better. Something on the order of a fire drill and if you have an organized security team giving them specific areas to control. In fact, if the sheep are nervy you could probably do the whole thing under the guise of some sort of general emergency drill without letting them know it was part of an armed response drill.
Last church I was in had lots of exits though. Might be harder in a little country church.
 
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