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Larry Vickers on Appendix carry

12K views 51 replies 36 participants last post by  YVK 
#1 ·
#30 ·
I have a video presentation of Vickers and while I agree with his stance in this case, I do not care for him. He changes his stance too often. In the video, he puts down the 1911 and praises Glock. Then I see another tv appearance where he talks highly of the 1911 and rebukes Glocks.

I like consistency in instructors and I feel safety is first and firearm choice should be up to the individual based on their needs, size and other things. Certainly not on what the instructor is pushing at the time.
 
#32 ·
Unfortunately for some of us, appendix carry is our only option. After a failed shoulder replacement surgery (thank you VA,) I can no longer rotate my arm/shoulder and lift my handgun out of its holster when carried behind the hip. We'll all have to make sacrifices as we get older and I've learned that this aging stuff isn't for sissies!
 
#33 ·
When I was in my 20's I usually carried in the appendix position. I was a really skinny guy and also had too short and small a waist to carry anything close to a standard 9mm or .45 pistol in the normal position, but with appendix I was fine. Later as I gained pounds and my belly grew larger I couldn't carry that way anymore. Now that I've got enough blubber on me I find I can carry in the normal IWB position just fine.

Back when I took training classes however (also when in my 20's) I carried outside the waist on the strong-side hip simply because that was what was required by the class. The instructor told us we could carry however we liked on our own time, but during the class he wanted to see where everybody's gun was.
 
#34 ·
YVK, you may just be "anatomically correct".

I'll just say that if appendix carry with a modern pistol is of concern to some, well, I have a flintlock pistol and every time I operate it, I just know it's dying to go off when I don't want it to. What I'm saying is, if I'd been born 300 years ago, you'da never caught me with a brace of flintlocks stuffed down the front of my breeks!
 
#37 ·
Appendix carry simply means you must keep your brain fully engaged every second. But since we live in the age of "multi tasking" a lot of people don't pay close enough attention to what their right hand is doing while they thinking about something else. If I were still instructing I would go along with Larry's reasoning 100%.
 
#38 ·
I know we are talking about training but the other big knock on appendix carry FOR ME is retention. I've had folks grab for my gun in confrontations more than once. It's not exactly pointed where I want it to be if I'm fighting for it. YMMV
 
#40 · (Edited)
Anyone of you tried a FoF/combatives with an appendix rig? The advantages in defense against the grab and in close fight have been well described by both trainers and students of this subject. It is one of the reasons I prefer it. But you actually need to get into an appropriate training and do it, physically, as opposed to perceptions and theoretical considerations.
 
#41 · (Edited)
I have trained with others that were using it. I don't carry in that mode so I don't train using it. My objections for MY USE are based partially on my previous experience as a defensive tactics and PR-24 instructor for my dept. Both deal with weapon retention. I trained plain clothes and detectives as well as uniformed officers.
 
#42 · (Edited)
From your professional experience in the above capacities, why you feel that positioning a gun in the area and axis where humans are capable of generating the most power, thrust, or pull, and where the gun can be defended with both arms and movements of core muscles, is inferior to placing a gun behind the hip, where only one arm is available for a direct gun defense and the power of available motions is reduced comparing to the above? Or is it simply irrelevant to you because you don't carry in that position?
I am not looking to argue, just to learn about different perspectives.
 
#45 ·
Actually I'm glad you're in this discussion.

Because its true... its also highly doubtful Vickers for all his experience could properly train someone with appendix carry.

Its a completely different draw stance, firing method, and mechanics.

Vickers has been used to military and police style draw and fire, which is what most instructors actually train. Because... well that's where their training is from and how they learned it. Its also generally an OWB holster as is generally carried by Military and Police.

Honestly appendix carry is much faster on the draw when you understand the stance, and mechanics. It is also a better hip/point shooting positioning. Especially if you're someone who walks with your hands in your pockets. It can be lightning fast when you understand it.

Vickers trains people from a different perspective. And his perspective and mechanics just won't work for the appendix carry position.

Appendix carry is a very close quarters draw and fire positioning. Hip carry is not.

But... there are certain... risks associated with it heh.
 
#43 ·
I welcome intelligent discourse. I don't condemn anyone for using this technique. I'm just explaining one of the reasons it doesn't work for me. As I'm sure from your statements that I'm sure you have practiced retention techniques yourself. Have you ever been told by an instructor to be careful as folks fingers get into the trigger guard and get broken. Some training guns now even come with solid trigger guards for this reason. My problem is with the orientation of the weapon if this happens in a real fight. You will be trying to either keep the weapon in the holster disengage to gain distance or hopefully be drawing to a retention position for a shot. I don't necessarily disagree that appendix carry places the weapon in an area of strength with both hands. Rotating the hips in a retention situation does help you gain leverage and distance with hip carry. Not so much with aappendix.
 
#44 ·
Yep, I agree on that part with distance management, provided that one can turn the way you want. I am personally petrified with the fact that if I dont and the attacker gets on my strong side, especially if gaining control of my strong arm, the gun is his.

The theory (and practice) that resonates with my beliefs the most states that the first mistake in the armed contact interactions is drawing the gun too soon once the contact has occurred. The emphasis is then on working the situation until you can draw with lesser risk of an impedance. To that end, having a gun immediately in the power zone seems intuitively advantageous. Another advantage is a massive superiority of appendix position for a weak hand only draw, if that's what is required to solve the problem.

Thanks for a discussion.
 
#46 ·
I carry a G19 AIWB and I'm happy to say everything is still where God placed it. It has advantages, namely, it is the #1 most concealable way to carry for skinny guys like me, or even bigger guys with no belly. If your gun gets squished into your gut, then no it's not ideal.

It's also faster. For those who are able, I challenge you to practice drawing from 4:00 vs 1:00 and tell me that 4:00 is still faster. You're up and out and shooting. Time yourself and see. I know, I've done it.

From FOF drills, I've seen it's easier to retain and control the weapon when it's in front of you vs nearly behind you.

I don't believe it's a fad. I believe it's better than having it on your hip. It works best for me. It also requires a certain level of awareness and training to make it work.

All that said, I can see why trainers may be uncomfortable with it. I can't say I agree, but I understand where they're coming from.
 
#52 ·
While this is an intuitive concern and I admit that I, and many of astute AIWB practitioners that I know, have gone long ways to reduce the risk of an ND during the holstering, whatever little stat info we have supports that NDs in classes are more common during the draw. Not reholstering
 
#51 ·
Safety boils down to three conditions:

1) Muzzle direction.
2) Loaded status.
3) Trigger finger.

With appendix carry, the first two are compromised (assuming you carry loaded and chambered), leaving the trigger finger as the only safeguard from catastrophe. Moreover, this catastrophe has more potential to be life threatening (femoral artery) and life altering (family jewels) compared to other body areas.

I've been carrying AIWB for nearly two years now using an FNS-9 (no safety striker fired) and while I've never had a close call, I am in the process of reverting back to IWB at the 3:30 to 4:00, which I will definitely do when my 1911 arrives. We are all human, and my personal choice is to reduce the risk further with a different muzzle direction.

I've taken MANY classes over the years and while it's always more fun to train with how you carry, I really don't feel any big loss with a conventional OWB holster. That's what post-class training and dry firing at home are for.
 
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