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FMJ vs Hollow Points

53K views 106 replies 27 participants last post by  NonPCnraRN 
#1 ·
Any advise on if FMJ vs hollow points for defense. I have learned that my 1911 just does not digest hollow points well. I have not yet put enough rounds in it to really break her in (about 150 rounds so far) so maybe after a while it will shoot ok with the hollow points. So my question is this, if my 1911 really does not fire well with hollow points...are there round nose bulltes that are good for stopping power in the 1911...? I'm worried about not using a load that will expand when it hits its target, and that may pass through into an unintentional area...thoughts and advice is appreciated!
 
#2 ·
You will get a load of response tomorrow on this one.

Welcome to the forum.

My 2 cents:
I carry only hardball. It will get the job done well. Over penetration, is way down the list of my concerns. Stopping the threat is number 1.

After studying ballistic charts and listening to forum discussions; I have yet to be convinced of hollow point superiority (in .45 caliber) over hard ball.

I have stood over dead bodies, waiting for the M.E., that were killed with hard ball; both .45 & 9mm.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I'm surprised there hasn't been a lot of replies to the contrary and I will stay out of the debate as well. Of my five, only one does not feed JHPs well but it's exclusively a range gun. One other needed the feed ramp polished but the other three fed fine from the factory. Break in was important for my two carry guns as they didn't feed nearly as well until I got 500 rounds through them. My Kimber is alloy so I refrained some until I got the ramp smoothed out so I didn't gouge the ramp too badly.

I'd get at least 500 rounds through it to make sure it's properly broken in. I'd also try a couple of different kinds since bullet profiles differ and some guns feed certain brands better than others. You can then make a decision bases solely on personal preference and belief rather than any limitations of the gun.
 
#11 ·
Remington's standard JHP is close to a FMJ profile, and has been recommended for just those conditions for decades.

Look at it this way, as long as the ammunition feeds reliably, why not take the chance that the round will expand as intended, increasing wounding potential? It certainly won't get smaller, no matter what.
 
#13 ·
Overpenetration with .45 acp hardball is not really an issue. (It is a bitch with 9mm.) If that's what works in your weapon, that's what you should use. At .45 velocity reliable expansion with hollowpoints can not be counted on.

Shot placement is #1. Adequate penetration is #2. Everything else is an almost academic #3.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Eh, I have to get in on this somewhere. Might as well be this post.

Just how is over-penetration worse with a 9mm FMJ than a .45 FMJ? The .45 ACP 230gr FMJ will penetrate 26"+ in gel, and gel has been proven to correlate well with human bodies. I have seen very few ambulatory people (I have seen one, just today, actually. The individual weighed roughly 600#) that have more than 26" in their torso, even from an oblique.

Further, yes, at ".45 velocities", many rounds are reliable expanders. This isn't the 70's.
Cartridge : 230 grain Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel (part #23975).

Firearm : Recoil-operated handgun with 3.8" barrel length.

Calibration : 10.0 ± 0.05cm and 591 ± 0.500 ft/sec impact velocity.

0.620 ± 0.0005" average diameter, 14.3 ± 0.031" penetration, 775 ± 0.500 ft/sec impact velocity.
-From Brassfetcher.com

I do agree though, use what works with your weapon, but then again--I don't agree. The weapon is chosen around the bullet, not the other way. That pistol isn't the point of the excercise. Putting a bullet into the target is. The pistol is just the messenger--it's the message that we are concerned with. If your pistol won't run a good JHP, screw it. Buy a pistol that will. Too many people worship the platform to the point that they will run sub-par ammunition just to justify the use of that platform.

Another point. That .45 FMJ-RN isn't making a .45 size hole. It is making about a .3" hole. Tissue is elastic, RN ammo only creates a permanent cavity roughly 66% as large as the projectile. JHP's make a permanent cavity rough;y 80-90% as large, due to the sharper shoulder on the front of the expanded projectile. A truncated nose design is good, and will probably increase the permanent cavity size over that of ball, but it won't exceed original calbier, that is for sure, so you are still stuck with a wound track 50% or less the size made by a good JHP. So for every time you shoot the target with a JHP, it will take two shots from the FMJ (or more) to cause equivalent tissue damage...that's what you're thinking. Again, wrong. Using simple math and the area of a circle, etc. the difference is 3-400% or so with regards to tissue crushed. Find the area of a circle .3" across and compare it to that of a circle .6" across. So to destroy an equivalent amount of tissue equates to 3-4 trigger pulls. Lame.

Stop whining about "Oh I'm scared the JHP will underpenetrate". Plenty of premium JHP's will penetrate 14-16" in .45 caliber. If 14-16" isn't enough for you, then why not? Are you worried about intermediate hard barriers? Then you shouldn't have picked a .45. Again. Pick the caliber to suite the need, and the weapon to suit the caliber. So many people are doing it all backwards and they end up with opinions like "Hardball is best because it's the only thing that's reliable".

It may be best--in a pistol that won't run. But why own such a thing?
 
#15 ·
Also, and I may be going out on a limb here, I'm not altogether certain that hardball is necessarily a bad choice for the reasons given above. Look, folks, you don't have to blow the heart into a million pieces; you've just got to hit it, and you don't have to make the liver look like it just spent 10 minutes in a Cuisinart. Again, you've just got to hit it. All things being equal, yes, I'd rather have a properly expanded hollowpoint reach the same location as a hardball round since, for the most part, the hollowpoint will infict more damage than hardball. But things aren't always equal. Unlike some hollowpoints, hardball generally has no problems feeding (as always, this is more a matter of knowing your gun and what it feeds reliably) and almost without exception it just plows along its merry way busting up whatever it comes into contact with. Hollowpoints, even the best of them, can do really strange things such as shedding the jacket, losing an inordinate amount of weight, or expanding so rapidly that they don't reach the vitals. I've seen it time and time again and many times I don't have an explanation for it. It's just empirical observation and something to think about.
From Deadmeat2's thread on smith-wessonforum, "Tales from the Morgue"
a few years ago.

The efficacy of hollowpoints at pistol velocities has never been proven.
Why are they so popular? Marketing.

Joe
 
#16 ·
All JHP's reach maximum expansion within an inch or two of penetration, physics dictates that expansion must be reached immediately or not at all.

Bonded JHP's do not shed jackets.

A bigger hole is better than a smaller one. Even if they are both going to cause lots of blood loss. I will take every advantage I can get. Otherwise .22LR with a solid that didn't deform would be just as good as a .45, and I don't think that's the case.
 
#18 ·
OK so here's the next thought, I love my 1911, I have trained for home defense with it and I can handle it well. I have a small hand and even though I can hande a snubie 357 wheel gun I can double tap and move and pretty much hit the general center of the target every time with my 1911 and feel no recoil.

Yes I am worried about over penetration, I live in a suburb. I also want to stop my attacker if I'm ever in that position. So if 1911 cant handle a better defense load, than I have to ask myself if I can better handle a differnt gun.

I think I know the answer but has anybody had any luck or experience using extreme shock ammo in thier 1911, or is it all marketing hype.

Thanks everyone for the input, I havent yet put my gun in service for home defense yet because I am not comfortable with the ammo. I could use JHP's but I would be racking and droping the mag about every third shot...would a gun smith be able to make my 1911 work with hollow points...

OK that's at lot of questions so here they are:
1) has anybody had experience with extreme shock ammo
2) should I consider getting the gun "Smithed" to fit hollow points
3) If not a 1911 for my small hand what caliber and gun is recommended
 
#21 ·
1) It's crap.
2)You can do this, or you can get a different handgun, or, if this is night-stand only, and you have the cash to do it, I would buy an AR-15 and load it with 75gr Hornady T2. The latter is the most terminally effective, and least-likely to continue through house walls of the options I listed.
3)This is really personal. Go to a gun-store and fondle a few, then go to a range and rent and shoot the ones that fondled the nicest for you. Buy what works best. 9mm,357SIG,.40S&W,.45ACP are all good choices with the right ammunition.
 
#20 ·
Handgun rounds are poor penetrators. Their problem is they don't
penetrate enough, not overpenetration. But you must understand:
you have to hit the assailant! Passing through an assailant will take
most of the energy out of the round. In your environment, you must
control your shots so that you are sure of hits. It doesn't matter what
ammo you use, if you miss, it's going thru a wall.

Except:

Frangible bullets like extreme shock and glaser safety slugs are the
worst penetrators of all. If they won't penetrate a wall, they won't
penetrate a bad guy. Do not use them for self defense.

Bullets can't do magic. You can't ask it to know whether it's going
thru a bad guy or thru a wall.

You don't say what caliber your 1911 is. If it is a .45 ACP, go ahead and
use hollowpoint ammunition. It's big enough to get the job done, even if
the bullet does expand.

Joe
 
#23 ·
The 9mm is big enough to get the job done if it expands also. Every major defence worthy handgun caliber has a loading available that will penetrate 12-16" or so while expanding to .6" or larger, caliber dependant.

Handgun rounds penetrate just fine on people. It's cars and the like that they struggle with. Or if you load it with a light for caliber bullet that fragments, etc, it will cause problems. I simply do not understand why people think they need non-expanding ammo to reach the vitals on a human being. Can anyone produce evidence of such?
 
#26 · (Edited)
-From Brassfetcher.com

I do agree though, use what works with your weapon, but then again--I don't agree. The weapon is chosen around the bullet, not the other way. That pistol isn't the point of the excercise. Putting a bullet into the target is. The pistol is just the messenger--it's the message that we are concerned with. If your pistol won't run a good JHP, screw it. Buy a pistol that will. Too many people worship the platform to the point that they will run sub-par ammunition just to justify the use of that platform.

Another point. That .45 FMJ-RN isn't making a .45 size hole. It is making about a .3" hole. Tissue is elastic, RN ammo only creates a permanent cavity roughly 66% as large as the projectile. JHP's make a permanent cavity rough;y 80-90% as large, due to the sharper shoulder on the front of the expanded projectile. A truncated nose design is good, and will probably increase the permanent cavity size over that of ball, but it won't exceed original calbier, that is for sure, so you are still stuck with a wound track 50% or less the size made by a good JHP. So for every time you shoot the target with a JHP, it will take two shots from the FMJ (or more) to cause equivalent tissue damage...that's what you're thinking. Again, wrong. Using simple math and the area of a circle, etc. the difference is 3-400% or so with regards to tissue crushed. Find the area of a circle .3" across and compare it to that of a circle .6" across. So to destroy an equivalent amount of tissue equates to 3-4 trigger pulls. Lame.

Stop whining about "Oh I'm scared the JHP will underpenetrate". Plenty of premium JHP's will penetrate 14-16" in .45 caliber. If 14-16" isn't enough for you, then why not? Are you worried about intermediate hard barriers? Then you shouldn't have picked a .45. Again. Pick the caliber to suite the need, and the weapon to suit the caliber. So many people are doing it all backwards and they end up with opinions like "Hardball is best because it's the only thing that's reliable".

It may be best--in a pistol that won't run. But why own such a thing?

Using the Beartooth Permanent Wound Calculator, the Beartooth cast 225 gr RNFP only has a 0.270" meplat. That is a meplat a little over a 1/4" in diameter. At a impact velocity of 800 fps that little flat area will translate to a 0.54" diameter wound. A SWC with a meplat of 0.350" will create a 0.7" diameter wound at the same 800 fps impact velocity. Now you can argue the difference between a 1/2" hole through somebody vs a 7/10" hole but either one will cause damage. These are nonexpanding bullets. So you can get RN reliability and at least a 1/2" hole with a truncated cone bullet. I believe its meplat is between the cast RNFP and SWC. As to the platform, the 1911 can have an excellent trigger, it is flat and less bulky than a revolver of the same size. If even limited to the 7 round mag, that is still faster than a speed loader and holds 1 more round. It is easier to grasp than the fat gripped crunchentickers.
 
#27 · (Edited)
If we use that same calculator, how big of a hole would a JHP that expands and has a .5" meplat leave?

See, this is why I don't trust that calculator. The results are not born out in OIS's or gel.

Further, there are plenty of other guns besides a 1911, and plenty of ways to make a 1911 feed jhp's. Take your pick on the route you wish to travel to achieve effective JHP launching.

Further still, I used to live with a guy who had an ND with his G32. Hit his leg with a FMJ-FP at 1300fps. The meplat on that is around .2", I think. calculator says .65" diameter hole. It did NOT! core a .65" piece of meat out of his leg. It didn't even bleed enough to get on the floor.
 
#31 ·
Any advise on if FMJ vs hollow points for defense. I have learned that my 1911 just does not digest hollow points well.
If any of my 1911s didn't work 100% no matter what brand of hollow point I tried I wouldn't trust it with FMJ either. I can understand a 1911 being finicky about some brands, but considering the fact that almost all JHP ammo has a rounded FMJ-like bullet ogive nowadays I sense something is wrong if you can't find a brand that will feed.

Then again you mentioned you've only fired 150 rounds so far, so you may not have done enough testing. You can't say for sure that something works or not until you've fired at least 200 rounds of a given JHP load without failure. Yes I know that's expensive, but so is your butt.
 
#32 ·
I might be wrong here and feel free to flame away but isn't this theory the best as far as stopping power goes.

The bullet traveling at w/e speed means it has some sort of energy... if its a FMJ and it goes in, penetrates and comes out then its still carrying energy and did not transfer all of it into the body.

The JHP on the other hand, assuming same size/velocity will stop in the body, transferring all its energy into the body, causing more disruption of tissue/ more hydrostatic shock.... assuming key shot placement, I believe that this will do more damage/stop someone faster than a person bleeding out(example, a hole in the lung in both sides of the body, or ripping the lung apart inside the body)

MIke.
 
#33 ·
Temporary cavity vs. permanent cavity is it's own whole can of worms, worthy of another knock-down-drag-out thread all by itself.

Points to ponder:

Broadhead arrows kill many a deer with minimal TC.
Lightweight bullets with massive TC's that fail to reach vital organs aren't very effective.
Deer hit with pistol rounds that destroy less vasculature than a broadhead usually don't run as far as those hit with a broadhead, and some drop in their tracks. VERY! rare with a bow.

Many a argument has been made over this, and many will in the future.

I prefer a healthy balance. Hence my choice of 357SIG.
 
#34 ·
Tastes great! Less filling! TASTES GREAT! LESS FILLING! There is a saying when hunting with slow big bore cast bullets that you can eat up to the hole. Ever see bloodshot meat from a high powered rifle? That bloodshot meat does indicate an energy transfer disrupting the tissue. Both deer will be DRT if hit right or run away to die a slow death if hit wrong with either a high powered rifle or a large bore pistol/revolver. However you won't see that kind of energy transfer with a slow moving pistol round (compared to rifle velocities). High stepping rounds like the 125 gr 357 or the 357 Sig will expand violently and I will accept the energy transfer theory there, mainly because they work. However the 45 ACP is relatively slow by comparison, even the 165 gr and 185 gr +P rounds. They are just not that fast. The original OP question was regarding hp ammo not functioning in his particular 1911. The truncated cone will feed as well as RN yet produce a much larger wound than round nose. Some 1911s need some tweaking to feed hp ammo reliably. A good smith should be able to accomplish this. Or you can stick with the ammo suggested (truncated cone or RNFP) and still have ammo that will create a half inch hole or 2 in a bad guy.
 
#37 ·
Even with the modern designs, can we trust handgun bullets to reliably expand & look like they do in glossy print ads? It would be great if they always performed like that. There are plenty new bullets that companies seem to want to elevate to ray gun status. I watched a G & A TV show not too long ago that seemed to suggest a .380 was a death machine due to new bullet designs.

No matter what, a .45 will always be at least .45. A 9mm will always be at least a .36. These statements are true if the bullets don't expand. If they do then move things up a notch.

This isn't to say a .36 is no good. I think Wild Bill proved otherwise. Most important is to hit what you shoot at. Hitting with a bigger gun is never a bad thing.

Mindset is more important than anything. The (good) man running to the fight with a 9mm is deadlier than one running away with a .40

I think DSK was spot on. I believe he was saying you ought question overall reliabilty (and not ammo choice) if your pistol can't work with JHP.

Carrying JHP is always better if it works... it may well expand. Ball won't. If you have only ball at hand, don't fret.
 
#41 ·
N/A Power,

I think what your saying is this: Mindset of the bad guy can overcome immediate affects of a handgun round not placed in the brain or spinal column. He will eventually succumb and sooner if shot more times?

I saw a crimnal shot with a stout .41 magnum years ago. The exit wound was about 2 inches in diameter. He went down fast and it wasn't just in his mind to do so.
 
#42 · (Edited)
I think that when shot in a non-critical area, the more energy dumped into the target, the larger the TC, the more psychological impact there is as the more "punch" the BG feels. If the guy is jacked on PCP, it doesn't matter much, if at all, but if they aren't, they might well stop a lot "better" using a higher-energy round due to the psychological factor.

I am not talking about knockdown power, please don't get me wrong. I am simply saying that TC displaces things, and the more displacement, the more the physical "sensation" of being shot, the more likely the mind will break down.

Now, if you put a round through the aorta, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what kind of TC it had. THe guy is going to have a very rapidly deteriorating condition.

Like I said, I like the 357SIG. Good penetration, adequate expansion, large TC.
 
#43 ·
So here is what I learend - I need to feed more JHP round through the gun, (it's a Kimber TLE II .45 caliber) before I really know how it's working. I started with Winchester hollow points and got feed failures pretty consistently.

After a 200-500 rounds of round ammo I will try JHP's again - (any body have a good JHP recommendation for the Kimber 1911 .45) If they still jam I will consider having it smithed by someone knowledgeable or chaging to gun that fits me and that will feed hollow points.

The discussions and the points made here are valuable stuff for me. The knowledge base in this forum is impressive and thanks to Joe I think it was or someone who said first you have to hit the bad guy. A reminder that any shot out of the barrel that doesnt hit the intended target can be a real bummer. More reinforcement for me that the comfort level I am builing with my 1911 is at the top of the list, and I would like to get to a point where I can shoot hollow points if possible.

Again the contributions here are amazing, I'm glad I joined...
 
#45 · (Edited)
1911's are quirky. What works in one, might not work in another. That said, the rounds I would pick in .45 ACP caliber for a 5" gun, in order within their respective categories:

Non-Bonded:
230gr HST (EXCELLENT expansion with acceptable penetration)
230gr Ranger T-series (penetrates on the "shallow" side, expands EXCELLENT)
230gr Golden Saber (very 1911 friendly, older design, sheds jacket often)
230gr Hornady XTP (accurate)
230gr Hydrashok (Very accurate, and usually very 1911 friendly, older design, prone to "plugging" more than others)

Bonded:
185gr Corbon DPX (monolithic solid) (very good penetration, very reliable expansion)
230gr Gold Dot Hollow Point (decent expansion, good penetration)
230gr Golden Saber Bonded
 
#48 · (Edited)
I'd find out why it doesn't work! I have several stock 1911s (the real thing made before 1924) and all of them will digest Federal, Remington or Winchester JHP ammo.

Might not work with some of the other brands which have squarish, pointy or sharp edged ammo but I dont find any difference in Remington JHP, Federal HST or ball as to feeding.

Could be a magazine issue might show up the difference. While I prefer Wilson 47Ds or McCormick Power Mags the above testing was done with G.I. mags (the real thing not the cheap aftermarket ones).

Jim
 
#49 ·
I'd find out why it doesn't work! I have several stock 1911s (the real thing made before 1924) and all of them will digest Federal, Remington or Winchester JHP ammo.
Agreed. My 1911's do not enjoy the liberty of deciding what ammo they will feed reliably. Assuming the ammo itself, and the magazines feeding it are within spec, my pistolas either feed it, blast it and burp out an empty or they get looked at one time (and one time only) by a professional. If that no fix the problem (and it IS a problem IMO), they get sold. Period.
 
#50 ·
Just one more factor to add to the mix...if your Kimber has a stock 16 lb recoil spring try changing it out to a new 17 or 18.5 lb spring and see if that improves the "feeding" of your ammo.

regards
 
#55 ·
I would use either +P HP or FMJ, but prefer FMJ ball because it penetrates further. If a 300 lb biker type is after me and I had HP, I would go for a head shot. A .45 hole is plenty big through the heart or spine, the 230 FMJ has been proven many times over in combat.

I don't believe gelatin is an accurate simulation of human tissue. The density is similar because it is water based (people are 70% water), but other mechanical properities are not similar. The bone, tendon, muscle etc are different than gelatin. I do believe gelatin tests will accurately measure a bullet's effectiveness on jellyfish.

I also don't believe a .45 FMJ will travel through a body, gently pushing tissue out of the way to make a smaller wound channel than the bullet. The FMJ bullets yaw and tumble upon penetration with devastating effects. I am not concerned about overpenetration with ball, but am concerned with missing the target. I also don't believe the statistical studies of HP vrs ball with various calibers (read - How To Lie With Statistics).

Just make sure your gun is reliable with whatever ammo you use. My two cents (or less)
 
#56 ·
Gel has been proven to correlate well with regards to penetration and expansion. Gunshot wounds/autopsies confirm that handgun bullets do not destroy 100% of the tissue they contact. A 300# biker is not likely to have any more mass protecting his thoracic cavity than anyone else. I had a 600+# patient and their thoracic cavity was not much deeper than anyone elses. Fat is not stored over the sternal area very much. This picture illustrates:

 
#60 · (Edited)
My statement about the correlation of gel/people comes from a 20-autopsy/OIS study involving the 147gr 9mm JHP. Penetration in the deceased was measured, as were the expanded bullets. Very similar performance.

I know what you mean about "variances", and the 357JHP is a VERY! good example. Does it frag? Does it not? etc.

This is a prime reason why I give up some expansion (HST, etc.) and use Speer Gold Dot's in 357SIG. A Gold-Dot is not going to over-expand within its intended velocity window. It is not going to frag unless it hits concrete or plate steel. It MIGHT not expand, in which case it will simply penetrate more and make a smaller hole, but by god it WILL at least get where it's supposed to be going.

The skin on the human back has been determined to be equivalent to about 4" of ballistic gel. It IS very tough.
 
#66 ·
All good points. I used the Gold dot intended for the Sig in a 9X23 handload on a small farm pig (actually I guess you would call it a "shoat"). It was diseased (though it looked healthy enough to me). The 9X23 load pused that bullet at 1650 fps from my 5" Colt and I shot the little 75 lb critter in the heart. It ran around in a big circle for a while but unfortunately it ran toward people and I could not shoot it again to put it out of its misery.

Autopsy showed the bullet went about 9.5" deep and came to rest on the off side leg bone without doing it any damage. It did deform but was hardly a mushroom.

I completely agree with the idea of limiting expansion in order to get some decent penetration. I was a little surpised that a 125 that expanded to only about .50 caliber did not at least crack the off leg on a little bitty pig? But one case does not make a study.

Jim
 
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