I wrote this for my local forum. Thought it'd be more relevant here:
Originally Posted by Welldoya
I always wondered how the high-end 1911s stacked up to each other - Nighthawk,Les Baer, Ed Brown and Wilson. What are the major differences?
Or is it kind of like Ford vs Chevy?
I had too. I used to LOVE my Kimbers, I had great luck with them, and wondered how much better semi customs could possibly be. I came across a fantastic deal on an old Wilson and figured if I wasn't satisfied I could always sell it and get my money back.
Long story short, I can tell you it's most definitely not a Ford vs Chevy type thing. There are distinct differences between the 4 main semi-custom shops. One vs the others may suit you better depending on your tastes. I'll write a quick summary of what I've experienced.
Nighthawk:
Fit: I had the GRP, which was supposedly originally designed for a unit in the Middle East and a bit of slop was deemed acceptable to ensure reliability in a sandy environment. To me, while a loose slide is perfectly reliable, it's one of the hallmarks of the hand fitting resulting from the skill of a master gunsmith. At the price range, the tight have fitting is part of what you're paying for, and unacceptable to not have it. Nighthawk did offer to fix it, but I just don't have the patience. That pistol should never have left Berryville in the first place. I'm sure they CAN build a tight gun, but consistency is to be expected at the price range.
Finish: I had the Diamond Black, which is really just Ion Bond. Very interesting finish, and very durable. The gun showed no considerable wear, even on the barrel hood, very impressive. They also make some shiny finishes that are drop dead gorgeous, they're supposed to be rather soft, but very beautiful, especially with a set of alumagrips.
Trigger: Fantastic! No creep, minimal travel, short reset.
Summary: Beautiful guns, nice trigger, unacceptable fitting in my experience. If you want a sweet looking modern style 1911, but you're willing to deal with the possibility of it having to go back, it might be for you.
Les Baer:
Fit: Fantastic, the skill to build such a tight gun that runs reliably, is astonishing. These things are amazingly fit. These guys know how to fit. On the flip side, if you carry condition 3, which I sometimes do, good luck doing an Israeli draw. I know 1911's are supposed to be in 1, but I carried in 3 while in the military, so that's what I'm comfortable with.
Finish: a deep, beautiful dark blue. Absolutely classic. Had I kept it , I would have loved to put a set of stag or bone grips to offset the gorgeous blue.
Trigger: Heavy and creepy, sure, it's an easy fix, and Les Baer offered to fix it. I really wanted it to feel like a Wilson trigger, but I figured, if you want a Wilson trigger, get a Wilson.
Summary: Its a nice, heavy steel gun, it's built like a tank and you can feel it in the hand. It feels great in addition to the excellent fit and finish, and it feels like a well built, solid, manly gun. Les Baer justifies the trigger as being heavy enough for real-world defensive use, but I shoot better with a light, Wilson style trigger, and if I can't hit what I'm aiming at, it defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing, and I didn't want to mess with it, being what the builder meant for it to be and turn it into something it's not. Highly, highly recommended if you like a heavier trigger and believe its safer and all that. Another consideration is that they are a great value for what you get for such a fantastic price. Real world price of only a bit more than a Springfield TRP, also a great gun with a shiny finish, but no semi-custom.
Ed Brown,
I've only handled it. Jays downtown has a Special Forces bobtail. Very nice fit finish and trigger and surprisingly similar to Wilson. If I wanted a commander bobtail gun, I'd definitely give it a go. They came up with the bobtail thing, which I like, but I like a 5" barrel more than the bobtails. This is a rare combination, I almost bought a Kimber because it had a bobtail on a 5" barrel. I would definitely recommend it. The one at jays, they've got for 2200, I think it could be talked down to 2k flat, which is a fantastic value.
Wilson:
Fit: perfection. Not too loose, not too tight. Tight enough to be much more accurate than most, loose enough for Israeli draws, like I like to do.
Finish: very nice, parkerized or parkerized + armor-tuff. Not shiny, which may be a good thing for working operators, but I'm not one. Armor-tuff is a bit shinier than just parkerized, so I'll do the upgrade later on, after the parkerized wears a bit. Who knows, could take some time, and that's ok. Either option is a tough, good looking, durable option, can't ask for much more than that.
Trigger: absolute perfection. Not much more to say. I don't care about triggers in rifles, even my nastiest trigger (sig 716) is more than good enough to hit what I aim at within the ranges I shoot, but on a handgun, it makes a huge difference in accuracy, so to me, it's my #1 consideration.
Summary: The best fit for what I'm looking for. To me, no one does it better. In fact, I should have a spankin' new X-Tac in a couple of days.
The original question: Are the big 4 different? Absolutely, it's good to know what you're looking for, or learn along the way, but once you figure it out, nothing else will do.
The big question: Is it worth it? Depends on you. My dad has a custom fitted beretta worth several thousand dollars. I would NEVER pay that much for a shotgun. I used to shoot clays competitively and find my old SX1 more than good enough. I don't hunt as much as he does, but he doesn't even own a handgun. People have ARs costing 2k and more, I'd never pay that much for a rifle, especially in a useless caliber, like 223, but people use them a lot and feel they're worth it. Varmint hunting, carbine courses, etc, not for me. People have Rolex, Tag Heuer, I wouldn't pay that much for a watch, but I understand the appeal in having something so well made that it feels good to wear it, to hold it, to admire it. I could have Glocks that would work well and consistently and do the job just fine, and save lots of money, but they don't stir the soul like a 1911, also, when I grip another gun, my thumb subconsciously looks for the thumb safety, it knows that's what's it belongs. A Glock is perfect for what it is, but if you want a 1911 that is as accurate as it can be, and 100% reliable, it comes with a price of admission, a price that I'm willing to pay. Carrying a semi-custom, I know it'll get worn and scratched, which can be easily fixed by sending it back to its maker, I'll even upgrade the finish. I know I have the best possible tool on my side for my skill and training to effectively protect myself and my family should the need arise. God forbid I ever have to use it, if I'm successful and I'm able to walk away, the law will probably take it, and I'm ok with that by simply asking myself the question: how much is your life worth?
Whew, got a bit winded. Mods feel free to move this, and if you were patient to read this far, please comment. Maybe there's a method to my madness, maybe I'm insane, you let me know. Either way, just my 0.02, YMMV, and all that jazz.
Originally Posted by Welldoya
I always wondered how the high-end 1911s stacked up to each other - Nighthawk,Les Baer, Ed Brown and Wilson. What are the major differences?
Or is it kind of like Ford vs Chevy?
I had too. I used to LOVE my Kimbers, I had great luck with them, and wondered how much better semi customs could possibly be. I came across a fantastic deal on an old Wilson and figured if I wasn't satisfied I could always sell it and get my money back.
Long story short, I can tell you it's most definitely not a Ford vs Chevy type thing. There are distinct differences between the 4 main semi-custom shops. One vs the others may suit you better depending on your tastes. I'll write a quick summary of what I've experienced.
Nighthawk:
Fit: I had the GRP, which was supposedly originally designed for a unit in the Middle East and a bit of slop was deemed acceptable to ensure reliability in a sandy environment. To me, while a loose slide is perfectly reliable, it's one of the hallmarks of the hand fitting resulting from the skill of a master gunsmith. At the price range, the tight have fitting is part of what you're paying for, and unacceptable to not have it. Nighthawk did offer to fix it, but I just don't have the patience. That pistol should never have left Berryville in the first place. I'm sure they CAN build a tight gun, but consistency is to be expected at the price range.
Finish: I had the Diamond Black, which is really just Ion Bond. Very interesting finish, and very durable. The gun showed no considerable wear, even on the barrel hood, very impressive. They also make some shiny finishes that are drop dead gorgeous, they're supposed to be rather soft, but very beautiful, especially with a set of alumagrips.
Trigger: Fantastic! No creep, minimal travel, short reset.
Summary: Beautiful guns, nice trigger, unacceptable fitting in my experience. If you want a sweet looking modern style 1911, but you're willing to deal with the possibility of it having to go back, it might be for you.
Les Baer:
Fit: Fantastic, the skill to build such a tight gun that runs reliably, is astonishing. These things are amazingly fit. These guys know how to fit. On the flip side, if you carry condition 3, which I sometimes do, good luck doing an Israeli draw. I know 1911's are supposed to be in 1, but I carried in 3 while in the military, so that's what I'm comfortable with.
Finish: a deep, beautiful dark blue. Absolutely classic. Had I kept it , I would have loved to put a set of stag or bone grips to offset the gorgeous blue.
Trigger: Heavy and creepy, sure, it's an easy fix, and Les Baer offered to fix it. I really wanted it to feel like a Wilson trigger, but I figured, if you want a Wilson trigger, get a Wilson.
Summary: Its a nice, heavy steel gun, it's built like a tank and you can feel it in the hand. It feels great in addition to the excellent fit and finish, and it feels like a well built, solid, manly gun. Les Baer justifies the trigger as being heavy enough for real-world defensive use, but I shoot better with a light, Wilson style trigger, and if I can't hit what I'm aiming at, it defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing, and I didn't want to mess with it, being what the builder meant for it to be and turn it into something it's not. Highly, highly recommended if you like a heavier trigger and believe its safer and all that. Another consideration is that they are a great value for what you get for such a fantastic price. Real world price of only a bit more than a Springfield TRP, also a great gun with a shiny finish, but no semi-custom.
Ed Brown,
I've only handled it. Jays downtown has a Special Forces bobtail. Very nice fit finish and trigger and surprisingly similar to Wilson. If I wanted a commander bobtail gun, I'd definitely give it a go. They came up with the bobtail thing, which I like, but I like a 5" barrel more than the bobtails. This is a rare combination, I almost bought a Kimber because it had a bobtail on a 5" barrel. I would definitely recommend it. The one at jays, they've got for 2200, I think it could be talked down to 2k flat, which is a fantastic value.
Wilson:
Fit: perfection. Not too loose, not too tight. Tight enough to be much more accurate than most, loose enough for Israeli draws, like I like to do.
Finish: very nice, parkerized or parkerized + armor-tuff. Not shiny, which may be a good thing for working operators, but I'm not one. Armor-tuff is a bit shinier than just parkerized, so I'll do the upgrade later on, after the parkerized wears a bit. Who knows, could take some time, and that's ok. Either option is a tough, good looking, durable option, can't ask for much more than that.
Trigger: absolute perfection. Not much more to say. I don't care about triggers in rifles, even my nastiest trigger (sig 716) is more than good enough to hit what I aim at within the ranges I shoot, but on a handgun, it makes a huge difference in accuracy, so to me, it's my #1 consideration.
Summary: The best fit for what I'm looking for. To me, no one does it better. In fact, I should have a spankin' new X-Tac in a couple of days.
The original question: Are the big 4 different? Absolutely, it's good to know what you're looking for, or learn along the way, but once you figure it out, nothing else will do.
The big question: Is it worth it? Depends on you. My dad has a custom fitted beretta worth several thousand dollars. I would NEVER pay that much for a shotgun. I used to shoot clays competitively and find my old SX1 more than good enough. I don't hunt as much as he does, but he doesn't even own a handgun. People have ARs costing 2k and more, I'd never pay that much for a rifle, especially in a useless caliber, like 223, but people use them a lot and feel they're worth it. Varmint hunting, carbine courses, etc, not for me. People have Rolex, Tag Heuer, I wouldn't pay that much for a watch, but I understand the appeal in having something so well made that it feels good to wear it, to hold it, to admire it. I could have Glocks that would work well and consistently and do the job just fine, and save lots of money, but they don't stir the soul like a 1911, also, when I grip another gun, my thumb subconsciously looks for the thumb safety, it knows that's what's it belongs. A Glock is perfect for what it is, but if you want a 1911 that is as accurate as it can be, and 100% reliable, it comes with a price of admission, a price that I'm willing to pay. Carrying a semi-custom, I know it'll get worn and scratched, which can be easily fixed by sending it back to its maker, I'll even upgrade the finish. I know I have the best possible tool on my side for my skill and training to effectively protect myself and my family should the need arise. God forbid I ever have to use it, if I'm successful and I'm able to walk away, the law will probably take it, and I'm ok with that by simply asking myself the question: how much is your life worth?
Whew, got a bit winded. Mods feel free to move this, and if you were patient to read this far, please comment. Maybe there's a method to my madness, maybe I'm insane, you let me know. Either way, just my 0.02, YMMV, and all that jazz.