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Wilson vs Nighthawk vs Les Baer vs Ed Brown

47K views 64 replies 30 participants last post by  Noklue3 
#1 · (Edited)
I wrote this for my local forum. Thought it'd be more relevant here:
Originally Posted by Welldoya
I always wondered how the high-end 1911s stacked up to each other - Nighthawk,Les Baer, Ed Brown and Wilson. What are the major differences?
Or is it kind of like Ford vs Chevy?
I had too. I used to LOVE my Kimbers, I had great luck with them, and wondered how much better semi customs could possibly be. I came across a fantastic deal on an old Wilson and figured if I wasn't satisfied I could always sell it and get my money back.

Long story short, I can tell you it's most definitely not a Ford vs Chevy type thing. There are distinct differences between the 4 main semi-custom shops. One vs the others may suit you better depending on your tastes. I'll write a quick summary of what I've experienced.

Nighthawk:
Fit: I had the GRP, which was supposedly originally designed for a unit in the Middle East and a bit of slop was deemed acceptable to ensure reliability in a sandy environment. To me, while a loose slide is perfectly reliable, it's one of the hallmarks of the hand fitting resulting from the skill of a master gunsmith. At the price range, the tight have fitting is part of what you're paying for, and unacceptable to not have it. Nighthawk did offer to fix it, but I just don't have the patience. That pistol should never have left Berryville in the first place. I'm sure they CAN build a tight gun, but consistency is to be expected at the price range.
Finish: I had the Diamond Black, which is really just Ion Bond. Very interesting finish, and very durable. The gun showed no considerable wear, even on the barrel hood, very impressive. They also make some shiny finishes that are drop dead gorgeous, they're supposed to be rather soft, but very beautiful, especially with a set of alumagrips.
Trigger: Fantastic! No creep, minimal travel, short reset.
Summary: Beautiful guns, nice trigger, unacceptable fitting in my experience. If you want a sweet looking modern style 1911, but you're willing to deal with the possibility of it having to go back, it might be for you.

Les Baer:
Fit: Fantastic, the skill to build such a tight gun that runs reliably, is astonishing. These things are amazingly fit. These guys know how to fit. On the flip side, if you carry condition 3, which I sometimes do, good luck doing an Israeli draw. I know 1911's are supposed to be in 1, but I carried in 3 while in the military, so that's what I'm comfortable with.
Finish: a deep, beautiful dark blue. Absolutely classic. Had I kept it , I would have loved to put a set of stag or bone grips to offset the gorgeous blue.
Trigger: Heavy and creepy, sure, it's an easy fix, and Les Baer offered to fix it. I really wanted it to feel like a Wilson trigger, but I figured, if you want a Wilson trigger, get a Wilson.
Summary: Its a nice, heavy steel gun, it's built like a tank and you can feel it in the hand. It feels great in addition to the excellent fit and finish, and it feels like a well built, solid, manly gun. Les Baer justifies the trigger as being heavy enough for real-world defensive use, but I shoot better with a light, Wilson style trigger, and if I can't hit what I'm aiming at, it defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing, and I didn't want to mess with it, being what the builder meant for it to be and turn it into something it's not. Highly, highly recommended if you like a heavier trigger and believe its safer and all that. Another consideration is that they are a great value for what you get for such a fantastic price. Real world price of only a bit more than a Springfield TRP, also a great gun with a shiny finish, but no semi-custom.
Ed Brown,
I've only handled it. Jays downtown has a Special Forces bobtail. Very nice fit finish and trigger and surprisingly similar to Wilson. If I wanted a commander bobtail gun, I'd definitely give it a go. They came up with the bobtail thing, which I like, but I like a 5" barrel more than the bobtails. This is a rare combination, I almost bought a Kimber because it had a bobtail on a 5" barrel. I would definitely recommend it. The one at jays, they've got for 2200, I think it could be talked down to 2k flat, which is a fantastic value.

Wilson:
Fit: perfection. Not too loose, not too tight. Tight enough to be much more accurate than most, loose enough for Israeli draws, like I like to do.
Finish: very nice, parkerized or parkerized + armor-tuff. Not shiny, which may be a good thing for working operators, but I'm not one. Armor-tuff is a bit shinier than just parkerized, so I'll do the upgrade later on, after the parkerized wears a bit. Who knows, could take some time, and that's ok. Either option is a tough, good looking, durable option, can't ask for much more than that.
Trigger: absolute perfection. Not much more to say. I don't care about triggers in rifles, even my nastiest trigger (sig 716) is more than good enough to hit what I aim at within the ranges I shoot, but on a handgun, it makes a huge difference in accuracy, so to me, it's my #1 consideration.
Summary: The best fit for what I'm looking for. To me, no one does it better. In fact, I should have a spankin' new X-Tac in a couple of days.

The original question: Are the big 4 different? Absolutely, it's good to know what you're looking for, or learn along the way, but once you figure it out, nothing else will do.

The big question: Is it worth it? Depends on you. My dad has a custom fitted beretta worth several thousand dollars. I would NEVER pay that much for a shotgun. I used to shoot clays competitively and find my old SX1 more than good enough. I don't hunt as much as he does, but he doesn't even own a handgun. People have ARs costing 2k and more, I'd never pay that much for a rifle, especially in a useless caliber, like 223, but people use them a lot and feel they're worth it. Varmint hunting, carbine courses, etc, not for me. People have Rolex, Tag Heuer, I wouldn't pay that much for a watch, but I understand the appeal in having something so well made that it feels good to wear it, to hold it, to admire it. I could have Glocks that would work well and consistently and do the job just fine, and save lots of money, but they don't stir the soul like a 1911, also, when I grip another gun, my thumb subconsciously looks for the thumb safety, it knows that's what's it belongs. A Glock is perfect for what it is, but if you want a 1911 that is as accurate as it can be, and 100% reliable, it comes with a price of admission, a price that I'm willing to pay. Carrying a semi-custom, I know it'll get worn and scratched, which can be easily fixed by sending it back to its maker, I'll even upgrade the finish. I know I have the best possible tool on my side for my skill and training to effectively protect myself and my family should the need arise. God forbid I ever have to use it, if I'm successful and I'm able to walk away, the law will probably take it, and I'm ok with that by simply asking myself the question: how much is your life worth?


Whew, got a bit winded. Mods feel free to move this, and if you were patient to read this far, please comment. Maybe there's a method to my madness, maybe I'm insane, you let me know. Either way, just my 0.02, YMMV, and all that jazz.
 
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#36 ·
We've always got to acknowledge here that subjectivity, owner/purchase experiences and individual shooting priorities will heavily-influence any and all answers that one is going to see whenever a question like this is answered, and in truth, none of them will really be wrong.

I tend to peel away some of the former peer competitors from Wilson's these days, not so much because I think the quality of the guns is substantively different (with Brown being perhaps the best example), but because Wilson's has continued to relentlessly innovate, broaden their product line, improve quality standards and achieve the highest levels of customer satisfaction in the industry. The others haven't necessarily flagged along the way, but Wilson's has just shot so much Nitrous into the equation that it just doesn't strike me as a fair comparison any longer in many ways.

Of course, for every guy that just took delivery of his next safe queen SuperGrade from Berryville, there is probably another guy who is enjoying the daylights out of taking his Brown to the range; oddly enough, those two theoretical guys might actually be one-and-the-same in real life. There is certainly room for more than one marque in the collection of any real 1911 aficionado, and appreciating the shades of distinction that separate one from another is all a part of the process. Different tools for different applications. Perfectly logical.

Over time, of course, you might tend to find that you gravitate heavily toward guns from one or two favored manufacturers. Others will invariably fall by the wayside, be sold-off or just consigned to a certain irrelevance. Some guys will become strict Wilson loyalists. Some may ultimately move to a certain distance even beyond this point. It is definitely a journey, and we all walk a different path. The challenge is to keep some kind of purpose infused into the process along the way.

For my part, after spending decades around these guns, I've ended up with a very short list of 1911s that still rate a permanent place in my storage rack. I don't list them, and I don't particularly care to share photos and such; however, you'll find that my approach here is pretty typical of guys who are heavily-invested in the upper end of this market.

Not to be unkind, but signature lines loaded with inventory lists tend to strike me as some kind a plea for validation -- and an indicator that the member in question is probably chasing his tail to a certain degree. (This is absolutely everywhere on the site, guys, so I'm not chastising any of the usual crowd here.)

Full disclosure? With one lone exception, every 1911 that I own is now either a Wilson or a Colt. All custom guns. All carried regularly. All shot as often as I can still manage to get myself out to the firing line.

AC
 
#38 ·
Not to be unkind, but signature lines loaded with inventory lists tend to strike me as some kind a plea for validation -- and an indicator that the member in question is probably chasing his tail to a certain degree. (This is absolutely everywhere on the site, guys, so I'm not chastising any of the usual crowd here.)

I take some offense to that.

I find that members here are generally more enthusiastic about talking 1911's than they are talking any other sort of pistol on any other sort of pistol-specific website I'm on. I list the 1911's I own (and only the 1911's I own) because it tends to spark discussion or advice-seeking, either in public or private discussion, and I've been able to help many people based upon my own experiences with these pistols. Sometimes through discussion in threads, sometimes I'll get a PM saying "hey I see you also own this 1911, how do they compare?"

I do not list any guns I own on any sig line on any other gun website I'm a member of, and there are several. Same user name on Sig Forum, Glock Talk, and others. Feel free to look if you wish.

I wonder how many other people are reading that much into it to think less of a person who chooses to share what 1911's they own and shoot on a 1911 forum. :(

EDIT - which reminds me, mine isn't even up to date. It should be 3 Wilson Combat CQB's in 45ACP :D
 
#37 · (Edited)
"dead nuts accurate" Learn stuff everyday on this forum.

BTW this has been an interesting thread/read. I have such a hard time thinking of a different watch or a different 1911, even though an Ed Brown has always kind of interest me. But think I'm a Rolex and WC man til the end. I am bout done with BMtroublUs though. Leaning toward a Silverado. Yawn.
 
#42 ·
I have received many PM's that originated from looking at my signature - mostly concerning the Colt Commanders I sent to Springfield Custom.

One veteran forum member even contacted me and had his friend (off this forum) email me about my experiences with SACS, and I helped him choose a base gun for his first custom project. This was just a couple of weeks ago.

My "inventory" has been a jumping point for both helping those seeking to travel paths I've already traveled, and lead to some fun discussions.
 
#48 ·
My 2 cents on signatures:
No big deal either way, but generally, I am more interested in how well someone shoots rather than what someone shoots. I say generally, because I do sometimes get caught up in the "what"...Marksmanship, maintenance (so I can play Marksman) is what I most enjoy on gun forums...For a short time after I joined the 1911 forum, I listed all my guns, all my Wilson's on order, the Wilson's my children's - children will order (just kidding), but felt funny about it - it just wasn't "me".
I do enjoy reading peoples signatures that contain a snippet, quote, etc., which might reflect their beliefs.
 
#50 ·
In the past I owned a WC CQB Compact (still do) and an unnamed 5" (one of the brands in the post title), I'll leave it unnamed. I was at a 3 day training session and was going to use the 5" as my primary pistol. At about mid-day the first day I said "enough of this 5" it was actually painful to shoot. The checkering was very aggressive, and the recoil noticeably harsher than my WC. I still own the WC, don't own the 5". Plus their customer service was terrible.

So I'm shooting the CQB the other day, had a lower end 1911 I was shooting also, and noticed that mags glide into the WC, no resistance, just smooth like on bearings. And that's the magazine.

I had a minor issue with WC sending me a part that was unfinished. When I returned it I mentioned that it was getting a little pricy shipping the part back on forth at my expense. This was handled to my satisfaction, I wasn't making a big deal of it, just a comment.

So as far as I'm concerned, 3 of the 4 being compared are probably top notch 1911's.....one, not so much.
 
#51 ·
I gave up on brand loyalty. I've never been real fond of Nighthawks (they just look a little cheesy, IMO) but WC, LB, EB and nice springers make me happy.
 
#54 ·
As for this thread...

I have bought 22 premium grade 1911s over the past four years, and shot a total of 23,500 rounds through them.

9 Baers, 4 Rock Rivers, 3 Wilsons, one Volkmann, one Nighthawk and four full house customs from CT Brian.

Never had, and have no interest in anything from Brown. I have a fleeting interest in both Guncrafter and Springfield Custom, but not enough to be actually planning to purchase examples from either at this time.

I only had trouble "out of the box" with one of these guns. Other than that they all ran well and were as accurate as I could shoot them.

Of course I had and continue to have preferences, but none of this little lot were "bad guns" and the one that did have a problem was quickly fixed and returned FOC.

Plus +/-2k and there are few bad choices

FWIW I still have three of these guns.
 
#59 · (Edited)
You don't know what you are talking about.

Both brands will let you specify a trigger pull weight on an ordered gun.

If you do not order or do not specify then you will get something between 3.5lb - 4.5lb.

There is not a lot of real world difference between those numbers. Real target triggers are usually set to be lighter than both

There is no "design philosophy" or "trigger theory" here, just differing feels and weights and sometimes some crispness depending on how well the smith slept the night before.

Some makers do specify trigger weights on their model specs sheets, but you should not take those digits to the bank. Trigger characteristics will vary between individual guns from the same brand, and so that is a bad way to try and compare makers. Of course you can compare individual guns that way if you have both in hand at a shop.

Once you get to these brands the triggers are supposed to all be great, but sometimes they aren't. That is more of a QC issue than a design trait.
 
#63 ·
Dangerous: Very arrogant and rude to start a post with "you don't know what you're talking about" though not surprising that someone who calls themselves "dangerous" my guess is that me dangerous is far from it. Asshat, thanks for your valuable contribution to the thread. I'm sure I'm about to get kicked out, seems like a rather hostile crowd and most things seem to turn into a pissing contest. I'm sure AC's about to boot me, which is fine. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like AC's kind of a Prick too. Good day.
 
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