Colt 1918 Savage Slide NO serial # LUNCHBOX???

[missnoyo]

I traded for this pistol today. It is a 1918 frame with a savage slide. This gun has NO serial number or NO inspector marking it is stamped "United states Property". It has a 1924 main spring housing, and trigger. The barrel is stamped with "S P" and "D4" above it. Above that it is stamped "C 3838-4". The bluing looks original but has spots that have flaked and patina. NO grinding has been done on the frame to remove any stamps or numbers. Could this be a "Lunchbox?"
It came with a holster that is stamped on the back "S&R" and below that "J.P.C."
Can any one provide me any suggestion as to what I have acquired and value? I traded it for a Colt Woodsman.

[dsk]

Lunchbox pistols are as much myth as fact, and even somebody such as I would be very leery of buying a pistol being presented as one. It's really hard to put a value on it as the next guy would likely be just as suspicious as I am.

[jrw248]

Look at a couple threads in the last month or two about this very subject. Summary is you very likely have a contraband frame.

Get rid of it.

[dsk]

I noticed that both jrw248 and I had to go back and edit our posts after considering our replies. It's really hard to flat out tell somebody online that their new acquisition is either a fake or has been illegally altered, especially when I don't have the pistol actually in front of me to be able to make a sound assessment of it. But personally I think you should've kept the Woodsman. While it's possible that this could be a lunchbox gun that never had a serial number, it would require the services of BATFe to test the frame to be sure that there was never a number stamped on the frame, and of course if you lose the coin toss you lose the pistol as well. One has to wonder of course just how easily it would've been to sneak a firearm or frame out of a plant during wartime when so many armed guards and security procedures were in place to avoid sabotage and theft. Those are all questions that a potential buyer would ask, and I personally don't think it's worth the headache to own any firearm that's questionable.

[Blacksmith]

Spot on - we hash the 'lunchbox' frame story a lot on the forum.

Bottom line for me, I would not own a frame sans serial number - it's just not worth worrying about - especially if your trade didn't involve a bill of sale, should you run into an issue.

I would love to hear from a SINGLE factory worker that could substantiate the claim that 1911 parts got smuggled out of factories. Stealing parts from the war effort just doesn't fit the spirit of what was going on at the time.

I believe the majority of "lunchbox pistol" stories to be convenient explanations for idiosyncratic parts guns.

[missnoyo]

If some one took the time to remove the serial number why would they leave the us property on the frame and why would they remove the inspector stamp and not the us property stamp I looked with a magnifying light and do not see any sign of any marks where they have been removed. I also was looking for some info on the barrel numbers and markings ?

[jrw248]

Post a closeup of the property stamp.

[dsk]

The barrel is a WW2 Springfield Armory replacement unit. The "C 3838-4" is a heat lot number found on the later Springfield barrels. To answer your question as to why the USP marking was left, well, there really isn't any. I've seen USP markings only partially removed, I've seen the "M1911A1 US ARMY" removed but not the US Property, I've seen serial numbers taken off but nothing else, et cetera. About all you can say is that a pistol is what it is, and whatever story a person makes up to explain why it's the way it is can't be counted on as anything but a wild-arsed guess. If you have any large gunshows in your area this summer you might want to take the pistol along and show it to a Colt or USGI collector and get his opinion of it. However it still won't eliminate the suspicion as nobody will be willing to give out any form of written expert opinion.

[mpd1978]

It may very well be a lunch box gun, but its probably not from a Colt employee's lunchbox. Maybe a Springfield Armory Lunchbox gun. Possibly put together with spare parts and a extra frame sometime in the late 20's. I have no doubt that these lunch box guns exist, however it is usually just someone trying to justify a defaced gun. Yours has a lot going for it that makes me think it may be one, just not from Colt. I dont think it would have left the Colt factory with a Savage slide and SA barrel. Better pictures would be necessary to determine if the finish is original blue of the day.

[dsk]

Given the fact that some parts date from 1924 or later it quite obviously didn't leave the Colt factory like this. Colt also never acquired any AJ Savage slides. The pistol in its current form was assembled at some later date.

[Jim Watson]

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

I would love to hear from a SINGLE factory worker that could substantiate the claim that 1911 parts got smuggled out of factories. Stealing parts from the war effort just doesn't fit the spirit of what was going on at the time.

I had a classmate in college (1960s) who had a neat little box full of UMC parts pilfered by his Grandfather while employed at the plant. Grandpa had not been able to steal a frame which was more closely controlled. Grandson was very interested to learn of the availability of Essex frames (then about $40) that Grandpa's Parts could be assembled on.
The story might be doubted, but I saw the box of parts, sans receiver.

I believe the majority of "lunchbox pistol" stories to be convenient explanations for idiosyncratic parts guns.

Amen.
And don't get me started on accidental firing of allegedly defective guns.

[dsk]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Amen.
And don't get me started on accidental firing of allegedly defective guns.

How about "It went off while I was trying to clean it!"

Probably the number one excuse people give to the police after they played around with a loaded pistol and accidentally shot someone with it.

[oldcanuck]

..... and of course there is no definitive proof that the slide was manufactured by AJ Savage. The S bomb marking remains an unproven theory.

[CJS57]

I think the "heart" shaped cut outs on the frame under the grips is a Colt characteristic. Not easy to put those on an Essex or other frame. Need clear close ups to tell if it is real. But it a least it has a chance.

[Blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

I had a classmate in college (1960s) who had a neat little box full of UMC parts pilfered by his Grandfather while employed at the plant. Grandpa had not been able to steal a frame which was more closely controlled. Grandson was very interested to learn of the availability of Essex frames (then about $40) that Grandpa's Parts could be assembled on.
The story might be doubted, but I saw the box of parts, sans receiver.




Amen.
And don't get me started on accidental firing of allegedly defective guns.

Thanks Jim, that's believable. I'd wager, if you could steal a frame, it would be before it was SN'd and cataloged - which may lend credibility to a blank war-time frame floating about.

However, I don't think the BATFE would be any warmer to the idea of someone running around with one.

[Blacksmith]

Originally Posted by CJS57

I think the "heart" shaped cut outs on the frame under the grips is a Colt characteristic. Not easy to put those on an Essex or other frame. Need clear close ups to tell if it is real. But it a least it has a chance.

CJS - I don't think anybody's really contending the DNA of the frame - the topic is the missing serial number. IMHO, no need to go farther than that. I don't care what it IS, I'm focused on what it's missing...

[VetPsychWars]

Originally Posted by dsk

The "C 3838-4" is a heat lot number found on the later Springfield barrels.

That's the drawing number. C size paper, number 3838, revision 4.

You'll find your M1 Garand parts stamped all over with the drawing number. Heat lot is likely that D4 code.

Tom

[missnoyo]

Here are a few more pictures....

[jrw248]

What is under the 'U'. Is is a scratch or a partial imprint or stamp?

[mpd1978]

It would be impossible to say for sure without having the pistol in hand, but it appears to be wearing its original blue finish and does not appear to be polished. The polishing lines on on the grip frame appear to original. If the pistol had all of its correct parts for a late WW1 contract pistol it would be pretty collectible, however the total mismatch of parts makes it a lot less interesting to most collectors. I hardly think the BATF is worried about a WW1 pistol that has no evidence of having a serial number, just dont shoot anyone with it. Its not like its a Glock 17 missing its SN. There are several published books about US M1911's that show pistols with no serial numbers, it wouldnt be hard to explain the gun and provide documentation that these guns exist and why.

[dsk]

Originally Posted by VetPsychWars

That's the drawing number. C size paper, number 3838, revision 4.

You'll find your M1 Garand parts stamped all over with the drawing number. Heat lot is likely that D4 code.

Tom

Sorry, that was a momentary brain fart. Thanks for the correction.

missnoyo, can you get a little closer with the pics, or else show us the original hi-res version of pics 2 and 3?